Date:   Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:35:42 +0000
From:   vitor <vitor.soares@...opsys.com>
To:     Boris Brezillon <boris.brezillon@...tlin.com>,
        vitor <vitor.soares@...opsys.com>
CC:     Wolfram Sang <wsa@...-dreams.de>, <linux-i2c@...r.kernel.org>,
        "Jonathan Corbet" <corbet@....net>, <linux-doc@...r.kernel.org>,
        Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>,
        Arnd Bergmann <arnd@...db.de>,
        Przemyslaw Sroka <psroka@...ence.com>,
        Arkadiusz Golec <agolec@...ence.com>,
        Alan Douglas <adouglas@...ence.com>,
        Bartosz Folta <bfolta@...ence.com>,
        Damian Kos <dkos@...ence.com>,
        Alicja Jurasik-Urbaniak <alicja@...ence.com>,
        "Cyprian Wronka" <cwronka@...ence.com>,
        Suresh Punnoose <sureshp@...ence.com>,
        "Rafal Ciepiela" <rafalc@...ence.com>,
        Thomas Petazzoni <thomas.petazzoni@...tlin.com>,
        Nishanth Menon <nm@...com>, Rob Herring <robh+dt@...nel.org>,
        Pawel Moll <pawel.moll@....com>,
        Mark Rutland <mark.rutland@....com>,
        Ian Campbell <ijc+devicetree@...lion.org.uk>,
        "Kumar Gala" <galak@...eaurora.org>, <devicetree@...r.kernel.org>,
        <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        Geert Uytterhoeven <geert@...ux-m68k.org>,
        Linus Walleij <linus.walleij@...aro.org>,
        Xiang Lin <Xiang.Lin@...aptics.com>,
        <linux-gpio@...r.kernel.org>, Sekhar Nori <nsekhar@...com>,
        Przemyslaw Gaj <pgaj@...ence.com>,
        Peter Rosin <peda@...ntia.se>,
        Mike Shettel <mshettel@...eaurora.org>,
        Stephen Boyd <swboyd@...omium.org>,
        Mark Brown <broonie@...nel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v10 0/9] Add the I3C subsystem

Hi Boris,

On 16/11/18 13:16, Boris Brezillon wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018 12:31:42 +0000
> vitor <vitor.soares@...opsys.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Boris,
>>
>>
>> On 15/11/18 19:00, Boris Brezillon wrote:
>>> On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 18:03:47 +0000
>>> vitor <vitor.soares@...opsys.com> wrote:
>>>   
>>>> Hi Boris,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 15/11/18 15:28, Boris Brezillon wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 16:01:37 +0100
>>>>> Wolfram Sang <wsa@...-dreams.de> wrote:
>>>>>      
>>>>>> Hi Boris,
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>> What we could do though, is expose I3C devices that do not have a
>>>>>>> driver in kernel space, like spidev does.
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>> Mark, Wolfram, Arnd, Greg, any opinion?
>>>>>> Is there a benefit for having drivers in userspace? My gut feeling is to
>>>>>> encourage people to write kernel drivers. If this is, for some reason,
>>>>>> not possible for some driver, then we have a use case at hand to test
>>>>>> the then-to-be-developed userspace interface against. Until then, I
>>>>>> personally wouldn't waste effort on designing it without a user in
>>>>>> sight.
>>>>> I kind of agree with that. Vitor, do you have a use case in mind for
>>>>> such userspace drivers? I don't think it's worth designing an API for
>>>>> something we don't need (yet).
>>>> My use case is a tool for tests, lets say like the i2c tools.
>>> What would you like to test exactly?
>>>   
>>>> There is
>>>> other subsystems, some of them mentioned on this thread, that have and
>>>> ioctl system call or other method to change parameters or send data.
>>> I don't think they added the /dev interface before having a real use
>>> case for it.
>>>   
>>>> I rise this topic because I really think it worth to define now how this
>>>> should be design (and for me how to do the things right) to avoid future
>>>> issues.
>>> Actually it should be done the other way around: you should have a real
>>> need and the /dev interface should be designed to fulfill this need.
>>> Based on this real use case we can discuss other potential usage that
>>> might appear in the future and try to design something more
>>> future-proof, but clearly, this userspace interface should be driven by
>>> a real/well-defined use case.
>>>
>>> Also, exposing things to userspace is way more risky than adding a new
>>> in-kernel subsystem/framework, because it then becomes part of the
>>> stable ABI.
>>>
>>> To make things clearer, I'm not against the idea of exposing I3C
>>> devices (or I3C buses) to userspace, but I'd like to understand what you
>>> plan to do with that. If this is about testing, what kind of tests
>>> you'd like to run. If this is about developing drivers in userspace,
>>> why can't these be done in kernel space (license issues?), and what
>>> would those drivers be allowed to do?
>>
>> Basically I need a tool that help me during the development and to avoid
>> me to write a dummy driver for each device that I test.
> But we want I3C device drivers to be upstreamed, so why not developing a
> real driver everytime you test a new device and submitting it upstream?


Usually the devices that I test aren't the final product so it isn't 
easy to do the upstream.

But when possible I plan to do that.


>
>> For instances do some read/write,
> Doing SDR/DDR transfers is probably acceptable, but I still think we
> should push hard to have kernel drivers when that's possible.
>
>> get/set ccc commands,
> Exposing CCC commands is definitely not a good idea, since they're not
> even exposed to kernel drivers.
>
>> if something
>> goes wrong during the bus initialization have a to debug etc...
> Can't we add such a debug infrastructure in the kernel. Maybe we can
> expose debugfs files too if that helps, though if those debugfs files
> are actually used by userspace libs/tools, it's not any better than
> ioctls or sysfs files, since they will anyway become a stable ABI.
>
>>
>> For me this is a valid use case and I imagine when people start to
>> develop in i3c this interface will help everyone.
> How about you propose an i3cdev driver that allow users to do SDR
> transfers throuh an ioctl?

I think that was for v6 I started to something to expose the bus like in 
i2c-dev, but I liked the idea of expose only the device doesn't have a 
driver. Do you know if  there is already something in the kernel doing 
the same?


Best regards,

Vitor Soares

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