Message-ID: <82f8d56e-013a-03c5-2fe0-c928e2febb96@redhat.com>
Date:   Tue, 8 Jan 2019 12:32:39 -0500
From:   Waiman Long <longman@...hat.com>
To:     Michal Hocko <mhocko@...nel.org>,
        Dave Chinner <david@...morbit.com>
Cc:     Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
        Alexey Dobriyan <adobriyan@...il.com>,
        Luis Chamberlain <mcgrof@...nel.org>,
        Kees Cook <keescook@...omium.org>,
        Jonathan Corbet <corbet@....net>, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
        linux-doc@...r.kernel.org, linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org,
        Davidlohr Bueso <dave@...olabs.net>,
        Miklos Szeredi <miklos@...redi.hu>,
        Daniel Colascione <dancol@...gle.com>,
        Randy Dunlap <rdunlap@...radead.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/2] /proc/stat: Reduce irqs counting performance overhead

On 01/08/2019 12:05 PM, Waiman Long wrote:
> On 01/08/2019 11:11 AM, Michal Hocko wrote:
>> On Tue 08-01-19 13:04:22, Dave Chinner wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 05:41:39PM -0500, Waiman Long wrote:
>>>> On 01/07/2019 05:32 PM, Dave Chinner wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 10:12:56AM -0500, Waiman Long wrote:
>>>>>> As newer systems have more and more IRQs and CPUs available in their
>>>>>> system, the performance of reading /proc/stat frequently is getting
>>>>>> worse and worse.
>>>>> Because the "roll-your-own" per-cpu counter implementaiton has been
>>>>> optimised for low possible addition overhead on the premise that
>>>>> summing the counters is rare and isn't a performance issue. This
>>>>> patchset is a direct indication that this "summing is rare and can
>>>>> be slow" premise is now invalid.
>>>>>
>>>>> We have percpu counter infrastructure that trades off a small amount
>>>>> of addition overhead for zero-cost reading of the counter value.
>>>>> i.e. why not just convert this whole mess to percpu_counters and
>>>>> then just use percpu_counter_read_positive()? Then we just don't
>>>>> care how often userspace reads the /proc file because there is no
>>>>> summing involved at all...
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave.
>>>> Yes, percpu_counter_read_positive() is cheap. However, you still need to
>>>> pay the price somewhere. In the case of percpu_counter, the update is
>>>> more expensive.
>>> Ummm, that's exactly what I just said. It's a percpu counter that
>>> solves the "sum is expensive and frequent" problem, just like you
>>> are encountering here. I do not need basic scalability algorithms
>>> explained to me.
>>>
>>>> I would say the percentage of applications that will hit this problem is
>>>> small. But for them, this problem has some significant performance overhead.
>>> Well, duh!
>>>
>>> What I was suggesting is that you change the per-cpu counter
>>> implementation to the /generic infrastructure/ that solves this
>>> problem, and then determine if the extra update overhead is at all
>>> measurable. If you can't measure any difference in update overhead,
>>> then slapping complexity on the existing counter to attempt to
>>> mitigate the summing overhead is the wrong solution.
>>>
>>> Indeed, it may be that you need o use a custom batch scaling curve
>>> for the generic per-cpu coutner infrastructure to mitigate the
>>> update overhead, but the fact is we already have generic
>>> infrastructure that solves your problem and so the solution should
>>> be "use the generic infrastructure" until it can be proven not to
>>> work.
>>>
>>> i.e. prove the generic infrastructure is not fit for purpose and
>>> cannot be improved sufficiently to work for this use case before
>>> implementing a complex, one-off snowflake counter implementation...
>> Completely agreed! Apart from that I find that conversion to a generic
>> infrastructure worth even if that doesn't solve the problem at hands
>> completely. If for no other reasons then the sheer code removal as kstat
>> is not really used for anything apart from this accounting AFAIR. The
>> less ad-hoc code we have the better IMHO.

Another point that I want to make is that I don't see the kstat code
will ever going to be removed unless we scrap the whole /proc/stat file.
IRQ counts reporting is a performance problem simply because of the
large number of them (in thousands). The other percpu counts are
currently fine as they will only go up to hundreds at most.

Cheers,
Longman
>> And to the underlying problem. Some proc files do not scale on large
>> machines. Maybe it is time to explain that to application writers that
>> if they are collecting data too agressively then it won't scale. We can
>> only do this much. Lying about numbers by hiding updates is, well,
>> lying and won't solve the underlying problem. 
> I would not say it is lying. As I said in the changelog, reading
> /proc/stat infrequently will give the right counts. Only when it is read
> frequently that the data may not be up-to-date. Using
> percpu_counter_sum_positive() as suggested by Dave will guarantee that
> the counts will likely be off by a certain amount too. So it is also a
> trade-off between accuracy and performance.
>
> Cheers,
> Longman
>
>

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