Message-ID: <3e804986-89ef-2465-51ad-86e793b39b7e@ti.com>
Date:   Thu, 24 Jan 2019 15:00:06 -0600
From:   Dan Murphy <dmurphy@...com>
To:     Jacek Anaszewski <jacek.anaszewski@...il.com>,
        Vesa Jääskeläinen <dachaac@...il.com>,
        Pavel Machek <pavel@....cz>
CC:     <linux-leds@...r.kernel.org>, <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        <devicetree@...r.kernel.org>, <robh+dt@...nel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 2/2] leds: lp50xx: Add the LP50XX family of the RGB LED
 driver

Jacek

On 1/23/19 3:52 PM, Jacek Anaszewski wrote:
> Dan,
> 
> On 1/22/19 11:44 PM, Dan Murphy wrote:
>> Jacek
>>
>> On 1/22/19 3:39 PM, Jacek Anaszewski wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> On 1/20/19 7:42 AM, Vesa Jääskeläinen wrote:
>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>
>>>> On 18/01/2019 15.58, Dan Murphy wrote:
>>>>> Jacek
>>>>>
>>>>> On 1/18/19 7:45 AM, Dan Murphy wrote:
>>>>>> Jacek
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/17/19 3:10 PM, Jacek Anaszewski wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/16/19 7:41 PM, Dan Murphy wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hello
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 1/16/19 4:55 AM, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/15/19 4:22 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +The 24-bit RGB value passed in follows the pattern 0xXXRRGGBB
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +XX - Do not care ignored by the driver
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +RR - is the 8 bit Red LED value
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +GG - is the 8 bit Green LED value
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +BB - is the 8 bit Blue LED value
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +Example:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +LED module output 4 of the LP5024 will be a yellow color:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +echo 0xe6de00 > /sys/class/leds/lp5024\:led4_mod/color
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +LED module output 4 of the LP5024 will be dimmed 50%:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +echo 0x80 > /sys/class/leds/lp5024\:led4_mod/brightness
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +LED banked RGBs of the LP5036 will be a white color:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +echo 0xffffff > /sys/class/leds/lp5036\:led_banked/color
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This part with example cans remain in Documentation/leds if you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Does it actually work like that on hardware?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you do echo 0xffffff > /sys/class/leds/lp5036\:led_banked/color,
>>>>>>>>> does it actually produce white? With all the different RGB modules
>>>>>>>>> manufacturers can use with lp5024P?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you do echo 0xe6de00 > /sys/class/leds/lp5024\:led4_mod/color, does
>>>>>>>>> it actually produce yellow, with all the different RGB modules
>>>>>>>>> manufacturers can use with lp5024P?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I believe the answer to the general questions is no for any RGB cluster and driver out there.
>>>>>>>> Because if you set the same values on each and every RGB device out there you will get varying shades of the color.
>>>>>>>> But for this device yes the color does appear to be yellow to me versus what was displayed on my monitor by the HSL picker.
>>>>>>>> But everyone interprets colors differently.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you write the same value for yellow or white on a droid 4 and the N900 do they produce the same color side by side?
>>>>>>>> Most probably not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As you pointed out the PWM needs to be modified to obtain the correct white color to account for LED and other device constraints.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But we need to take into account the light pipe.  Pools nowadays have RGB LED spot lights in them.  It can
>>>>>>>> be set to white.  On my pool right off the lens the color has a purplish hue to it.  As the light is diffracted into
>>>>>>>> the pool the color becomes white.  The pool is clear.  When I add chemicals to the pool and make it cloudy
>>>>>>>> and turn on the lights the color off the lens is now white.  This is an example on a large scale but the issue
>>>>>>>> scales down to the hand helds and smart home applications.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the cluster is piped through a flexible optic 0xffffff may produce the "white" you want on its output.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So an expectation of certain color without proper piping based on a single RGB value may be a little unreasonable.
>>>>>>>> There may need to be a way to attenuate the values based on the hardware aspect of the equation ie light pipe (or lack thereof) and LED vendor.
>>>>>>>> So if we write 0xffffff to the RGB driver the driver could adjust the intensity of the individual LEDs based on the diffraction
>>>>>>>> coefficients.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also think that is an unreasonable expectation here that writing a single value to any LED RGB driver would produce
>>>>>>>> a "rest of the world" absolute color.  Maybe it can produce something similar but not identical.
>>>>>>>> As you indicated in the requirements there is more involved here then just the LED and the values written.
>>>>>>>> The colors should be close but may not be identical.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A 10 year old N900 should not be considered the gold standard for color production due to advancements in LED,
>>>>>>>> light pipe and LED driver technology.
>>>>>>>> The single package RGB clusters on the board I am testing is about the size of a single RGB LED from 10 years ago.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree that the interface developed should work on the device but the algorithm derived to obtain the color needs to have
>>>>>>>> a hardware aspect to the calculation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Is it supposed to support "normal" RGB colors as seen on monitors?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Monitors are not an application for this part.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You did not answer the question. When you talk about yellow, is it
>>>>>>>>> same yellow the rest of world talks about?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> See above.  It is close to what was on my monitor displayed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Because 100% PWM on all channels does not result in white on hardware
>>>>>>>>>>> I have.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know I am usually blinded by the light and have no diffuser over
>>>>>>>>>> the LEDs to disperse the light so when I look I see all 3 colors.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How can we have useful discussion about colors when you don't see the
>>>>>>>>> colors?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Place a piece of paper over the LEDs....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good suggestion for a rough test.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I believe we should have a reasonable design before we do something
>>>>>>>>>>> like this. There's no guarantee someone will not use lp50xx with just
>>>>>>>>>>> the white LEDs for example. How will this work? Plus existing hardware
>>>>>>>>>>> already uses three separate LEDs for RGB LED. Why not provide same
>>>>>>>>>>> interface?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Which existing hardware?  Are they using this part?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nokia N900. They are not using this part, but any interface we invent
>>>>>>>>> should work there, too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes a common interface would be nice with some sort of hardware tuning coefficient.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <rant>
>>>>>>>>>> Why are we delaying getting the RGB framework or HSV in?
>>>>>>>>>> I would rather design against something you want instead of having
>>>>>>>>>> everyone complain about every implementation I post.
>>>>>>>>>> </rant>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Because you insist on creating new kernel interfaces, when existing
>>>>>>>>> interfaces work, and are doing that badly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Because your patches are of lower quality than is acceptable for linux
>>>>>>>>> kernel.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Because you don't seem to be reading the emails.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I sent list of requirements for RGB led support. This does not meet
>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sigh.  You did not answer my question.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your requirements seem to be centered around monitors but that is only one application of the current
>>>>>>>> RGB LED landscape.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am willing to work with you on the HSV and adapting the LP50xx part to this framework.
>>>>>>>> Or any RGB framework for that matter.  I still don't agree with the kernel needing to declare colors
>>>>>>>>     maybe color capabilities but not specific colors.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dan, if you have a bandwidth for LED RGB class implementation
>>>>>>> then please go ahead. It would be good to compare colors produced
>>>>>>> by software HSV->RGB algorithm to what can be achieved with
>>>>>>> LEDn_BRIGHTNESS feature.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The requirements for LED RGB class as I would see it:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> sysfs interface:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> brightness-model: space separated list of available options:
>>>>>>> - rgb (default):
>>>>>>>     - creates color file with "red green blue" decimal values
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What about other colored LEDs?  Presenting RGB for an Amber LED does not seem right.
>>>>>> Should the LED color come from the DT?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought about this, other non-RGB LEDs would not use the RGB framework.
>>>>> But should they have the same interfaces as RGB?
>>>>>
>>>>> Should PWM control be a global interface?
>>>>
>>>> In order to being able to set multi color element led at one go I would recommend using then model:
>>>>
>>>> color_names: "red green blue white"
>>>>
>>>> echo "32 43 0 128" > color
>>>>
>>>> This way all elements would be set at same time from user space point of view.
>>>>
>>>> This of course requires that it is part of the physical/logical led that is being controlled. If it is a separate thing then it would logically be differently controlled mono color led.
>>>>
>>>> If you look what kinds of leds are available lets say from digikey you get all kinds of combos:
>>>>
>>>> - red, green, blue
>>>> - red, green, blue, amber
>>>> - red, green, blue, white
>>>> - red, green, blue, white - cool
>>>> - red, green, blue, white - neutral
>>>> - red, green, blue, white - warm
>>>> - red, orange
>>>> - purple, ultraviolet
>>>> - amber, blue
>>>> - amber, blue, cyan, green, red, violet, white - cool
>>>> - amber, blue, green
>>>> - amber, green, blue
>>>> - and then lots of single special colors
>>>
>>> It suggested me another solution. Instead of LED RGB class
>>> we would have LED multi-color class.
>>>
>>
>> I was thinking the same thing this morning.  But I was thinking that the RGB
>> class should be an additional class to stand on its own or can register to the
>> multi color class.
>>
>>> Sysfs interface design:
>>> -----------------------
>>>
>>> colors: directory containing files that map to
>>>          the brightness of particular LEDs; there
>>>          would be predefined color names that LED class
>>>          driver should map iouts to, e.g.:
>>
>> Filling in the missing ideas with questions.
>>
>> Is it a directory or a file?  If it is a directory does that not break the current
>> directory label model?
>>
>> so the path would be /sys/class/leds/colors ?  (It is probably not this but needs clarification)
>> How would this look if I had 2 of the same color LEDs?  The Beagle bone black has 2 Blue LEDs.
>> They are assigned to different triggers and have different directories.  Both are GPIO controlled.
>>
>> Or are you saying it would be something like (More then likely this is what you intended)
>> /sys/class/leds/input4::numlock/colors?
> 
> Yes, this is what I meant.
> 

OK.  Thanks for the clarification

>> Maybe it is mandated that "multi" be added to the label when the class is registered so the caller
>> knows that this is a multi color class and not a single LED color class.
> 
> Like I am going to come up with standardized color names
> in my LED naming related patch, the multi-color names
> can be defined as well, e.g.: rgb, rgbw, rgbwa, rgbwauv etc.
> 

That may be better it is descriptive off the command line.

>> What about providing a file called colors_raw which takes in the raw decimal values to obtain other color
>> variants when RGB is only available?  And this can also present a single write to the kernel with the new
>> color values.
> 
> My design already covers that in the form of files in the colors
> directory. Like I stated: "files that map to the brightness of
> particular LEDs". Single write is secured by "echo "write" > sync.
> 

OK.  So set the new values and then tell the set the sync which will make the device driver write the 
device.

Sounds good.  how about echo 1 > sync and we can stay away from a long string conversion

>> I am not a fan of hard coding preset colors as you can see there are to many of them and variations of the color.
>> In addition this severely limits the ability of the user.  Unless we stick to primary colors only and not secondary
>> colors.
>> Defining and hard coding hte colors can get out of control and not maintainable moving forward.  Especially
>> if we start adding defines like white_warm, white_neutral and other variations to the color.
> 
> We would not limit anything. Every color combination can be achieved
> by following this exemplary sequence:
> 
> $ echo 154 > colors/red
> $ echo 232 > colors/green
> $ echo 43  > colors/blue
> # echo "write" > sync     //only this changes hardware state
> 
> brightness-model is provided only to define mapping of legacy brightness
> levels (governed by brightness file and led_set_brightness() API) to
> the specific combination of colors.
> 
> For instance we can define three brightness levels for green hue:
> 
> DT definition for it would look like below:
> 
> rgb-green = <0x277c33 0x37b048 0x47e45d>;
> 
> LED multi color class would then do the following mapping for
> each of the three brightness levels for rgb-green brightness model:
> 
> $ echo rgb-green > brightness_model
> $ echo 1 > brightness // red=0x27, green=0x7c, blue=0x33
> $ echo 2 > brightness // red=0x37, green=0xb0, blue=0x48
> $ echo 3 > brightness // red=0x47, green=0xe4, blue=0x5d
> 

OK I would have to play with this on the LP devices.

>> What about IR LEDs used for night vision products?  Do these fall into the multi color class?
>> We do have a driver I submitted that had an IR LED and a White LED combined.  It was created against the
>> flash class but it could be a multi color LED as well.
>>
>> How would traversing through the full color palette work if you were to want to produce a multi
>> color ring like the LP50xx where the pattern can traverse from one end of the color spectrum and back?
>> Or in a product like the gaming keyboards that will change color or change backlight brightness?
> 
> This is not meant as a solution for pattern generator but for
> consolidated source of multi color light. In the simplest case
> RGB LED elements like those used for lp5024 reference board,
> but it could be RGBWAUV LED [0] as well.
> 
> For patterns traversing many LEDs I see a trigger as the best solution.
> Hmm, now I see that trigger mechanism actually can serve as very
> flexible pattern generator.
> 
> We would need a device that could be configured to register
> a number of multi-led-patternN triggers, one per LED, and generate
> events for each trigger in a loop.
> 
> The device would have to allow for configuring pattern intervals
> via sysfs, like in case of current pattern trigger.
> 
> LED class devices would have to register for its events:
> 
> $/sys/class/leds/led1 echo multi-led-pattern1 > trigger
> $/sys/class/leds/led2 echo multi-led-pattern2 > trigger
> $/sys/class/leds/led3 echo multi-led-pattern3 > trigger
> 

A bit off topic but I like the idea.  We should save this for another day


> The ability to define brightness models in DT would
> add even more flexibility.
> 

brightness models would be mandatory to support in the driver but an optional
DT entry.

Is that a correct assumption?

>> Not sure what color LEDs the keyboard manufacturers place on their keyboards but does the interface design
>> capable of doing this?
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfKv3g2FeBE
>> or something like this
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO3auX3f5C4
>>
>> The LP5036 has this capability.
>>
>>>    - red
>>>    - green
>>>    - blue
>>>    - white
>>>    - sync: accepts "write" and "read", which executes
>>>            write/readout to/from a device respectively.
>>>
>>
>> What are these above, the values or the files under the colors directory?
> 
> They are just color specific counterparts of monochrome brightness.
> In terms of lp50xx they would map to OUTn_COLOR registers.
> 
>> I am assuming they are files.
> 
> Right.
> 
>> Are they mandatory or optional?
> 
> Mandatory, one per each iout to control.
> 

OK And all the LEDs within this directory would be considered a LED cluster?

And if there are 2 like colors of the LED defined in the same cluster would we just see a single
file and write a common value to that file and the driver would have to update each
red LED within that cluster.  No independent control of like colored LEDs within the
registered LED cluster.

If the developer wants this level of control they would have to register two separate classes

Correct?

>>> brightness-model: defines brightness level to color configuration
>>>                    mapping
>>>    - "hardware": for devices with feature like LEDn_BRIGHTNESS of lp50xx
>>>    - "rgb-<hue>": available only when all three red,green,blue colors
>>>                   are present in the colors directory.
>>>                   <hue> is a placeholder for given DT hue presets.
>>>    - "rgbw-<hue>": Same as above, but available only when white color
>>>                   (any of amber or white-{cool|neutral|warm} can be
>>>                   mapped to white) is also available. In this mode
>>>                   max_brightness equals num-of-hue-presets + 1, and
>>>                   max_brightness, when set, turns the "white" LED on
>>
>> Why do we need white combined here?  Should this not be its own entity?
> 
> To be able to set white color. We're still talking about one LED
> element (although they can be be physically few LEDs in one case).
> This is brightness file, so we've got to stick to the semantics.
> Max brightness level should be the brightest. With RGBW LEDs we
> fortunately have a means to achieve pure white, that's why
> rgbw-<hue> would be beneficial. If you increase L component of
> HSL color space, the max value gives white for all hues.
> So maybe this brightness-model would be rather called hsl-<hue>.
> 
> For RGBW LEDs, we would have to allow for more shades of white too,
> like in [1].
> 

Yep.

>> Again I don't like limiting the color palette from the DT.  I think that the
>> user space can see what colors are available for that device and makes its own
>> decision on what color to present.
>>
>> For the RGBw what about RGB amber and RGB purple.  Are the white LEDs always part of the
>> same function trying to be achieved by the system designer?  The RGB can be used to denote
>> notification status and the white can be used to denote that a charger is connected.  Motorola
>> Droid did this.
> 
> I hope I've just clarified my idea.
> 

Its getting clearer.  I would like to see it in code and play with it not as a user
but as a developer.  Make sure the paper model works as well as the real implementation.

Is this model clear to the developer?
How would a developer define what values are appropriate for the brightness-model?
Does the driver have to become overly complex to support simple color generation?

Thoughts on putting code to idea?


>>
>>>    - "rgb-linear": I'm not sure if it should be available - it will
>>>                    have unpredictable results
>>>
>>> brightness: sets/reads brightness in the way specific to the
>>>              current brightness-model. When more colors are available
>>>              (e.g. amber, blue, cyan, green, red, violet, white), they
>>>              are not touched by write to brightness).
>>>
>>> HSV->RGB conversion is left entirely to the userspace, which can set any
>>> color with use of the proposed interface.
>>>
>>> Let's agree on sysfs interface first, and only after that move
>>> to the DT details.
>>>
>>
>> DT's are meant to describe hardware and not describe the product.  Unless Rob does not see
>> an issue with defining product capabilities in the DT then we should keep that out of the DT.
> 
> LED element is a device. I see nothing irrelevant for DT in describing the lighting specificity of a device mounted on the board. Please keep
> in mind that it will not limit the number of colors available to set.
> It will only allow to define mapping of brightness level to color.
> We need that for current trigger mechanism to work with LED multi-color
> class.
> 

I see this now.

Dan

> [0] http://www.cobledarray.com/sale-4942931-10w-rgbwauv-led-diode-6-in-1-high-power-multicolor-led-chip.html
> [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlFmTqOh9M
> 


-- 
------------------
Dan Murphy

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