Message-ID: <CAKOZuevm2Tk+O+hUA6Fn5U_cTQ8hKwr6bv29C6RxwZXid-S-Ew@mail.gmail.com>
Date:   Fri, 19 Apr 2019 15:08:14 -0700
From:   Daniel Colascione <dancol@...gle.com>
To:     Joel Fernandes <joel@...lfernandes.org>
Cc:     Christian Brauner <christian@...uner.io>,
        Jann Horn <jannh@...gle.com>, Oleg Nesterov <oleg@...hat.com>,
        Florian Weimer <fweimer@...hat.com>,
        kernel list <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        Andy Lutomirski <luto@...capital.net>,
        Steven Rostedt <rostedt@...dmis.org>,
        Suren Baghdasaryan <surenb@...gle.com>,
        Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
        Alexey Dobriyan <adobriyan@...il.com>,
        Al Viro <viro@...iv.linux.org.uk>,
        Andrei Vagin <avagin@...il.com>,
        Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
        Arnd Bergmann <arnd@...db.de>,
        "Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@...ssion.com>,
        Kees Cook <keescook@...omium.org>,
        linux-fsdevel <linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org>,
        "open list:KERNEL SELFTEST FRAMEWORK" 
        <linux-kselftest@...r.kernel.org>, Michal Hocko <mhocko@...e.com>,
        Nadav Amit <namit@...are.com>, Serge Hallyn <serge@...lyn.com>,
        Shuah Khan <shuah@...nel.org>,
        Stephen Rothwell <sfr@...b.auug.org.au>,
        Taehee Yoo <ap420073@...il.com>, Tejun Heo <tj@...nel.org>,
        Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,
        kernel-team <kernel-team@...roid.com>,
        Tycho Andersen <tycho@...ho.ws>
Subject: Re: [PATCH RFC 1/2] Add polling support to pidfd

On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 2:45 PM Joel Fernandes <joel@...lfernandes.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 02:24:09PM -0700, Daniel Colascione wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 2:20 PM Joel Fernandes <joel@...lfernandes.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 10:57:11PM +0200, Christian Brauner wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 10:34 PM Daniel Colascione <dancol@...gle.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 12:49 PM Joel Fernandes <joel@...lfernandes.org> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 09:18:59PM +0200, Christian Brauner wrote:
> > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 03:02:47PM -0400, Joel Fernandes wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 07:26:44PM +0200, Christian Brauner wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On April 18, 2019 7:23:38 PM GMT+02:00, Jann Horn <jannh@...gle.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 3:09 PM Oleg Nesterov <oleg@...hat.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> On 04/16, Joel Fernandes wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 02:04:31PM +0200, Oleg Nesterov wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > >> > > Could you explain when it should return POLLIN? When the whole
> > > > > > > > > >process exits?
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > It returns POLLIN when the task is dead or doesn't exist anymore,
> > > > > > > > > >or when it
> > > > > > > > > >> > is in a zombie state and there's no other thread in the thread
> > > > > > > > > >group.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> IOW, when the whole thread group exits, so it can't be used to
> > > > > > > > > >monitor sub-threads.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> just in case... speaking of this patch it doesn't modify
> > > > > > > > > >proc_tid_base_operations,
> > > > > > > > > >> so you can't poll("/proc/sub-thread-tid") anyway, but iiuc you are
> > > > > > > > > >going to use
> > > > > > > > > >> the anonymous file returned by CLONE_PIDFD ?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >I don't think procfs works that way. /proc/sub-thread-tid has
> > > > > > > > > >proc_tgid_base_operations despite not being a thread group leader.
> > > > > > > > > >(Yes, that's kinda weird.) AFAICS the WARN_ON_ONCE() in this code can
> > > > > > > > > >be hit trivially, and then the code will misbehave.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >@Joel: I think you'll have to either rewrite this to explicitly bail
> > > > > > > > > >out if you're dealing with a thread group leader, or make the code
> > > > > > > > > >work for threads, too.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The latter case probably being preferred if this API is supposed to be
> > > > > > > > > useable for thread management in userspace.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > At the moment, we are not planning to use this for sub-thread management. I
> > > > > > > > am reworking this patch to only work on clone(2) pidfds which makes the above
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Indeed and agreed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > discussion about /proc a bit unnecessary I think. Per the latest CLONE_PIDFD
> > > > > > > > patches, CLONE_THREAD with pidfd is not supported.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes. We have no one asking for it right now and we can easily add this
> > > > > > > later.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Admittedly I haven't gotten around to reviewing the patches here yet
> > > > > > > completely. But one thing about using POLLIN. FreeBSD is using POLLHUP
> > > > > > > on process exit which I think is nice as well. How about returning
> > > > > > > POLLIN | POLLHUP on process exit?
> > > > > > > We already do things like this. For example, when you proxy between
> > > > > > > ttys. If the process that you're reading data from has exited and closed
> > > > > > > it's end you still can't usually simply exit because it might have still
> > > > > > > buffered data that you want to read.  The way one can deal with this
> > > > > > > from  userspace is that you can observe a (POLLHUP | POLLIN) event and
> > > > > > > you keep on reading until you only observe a POLLHUP without a POLLIN
> > > > > > > event at which point you know you have read
> > > > > > > all data.
> > > > > > > I like the semantics for pidfds as well as it would indicate:
> > > > > > > - POLLHUP -> process has exited
> > > > > > > - POLLIN  -> information can be read
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Actually I think a bit different about this, in my opinion the pidfd should
> > > > > > always be readable (we would store the exit status somewhere in the future
> > > > > > which would be readable, even after task_struct is dead). So I was thinking
> > > > > > we always return EPOLLIN.  If process has not exited, then it blocks.
> > > > >
> > > > > ITYM that a pidfd polls as readable *once a task exits* and stays
> > > > > readable forever. Before a task exit, a poll on a pidfd should *not*
> > > > > yield POLLIN and reading that pidfd should *not* complete immediately.
> > > > > There's no way that, having observed POLLIN on a pidfd, you should
> > > > > ever then *not* see POLLIN on that pidfd in the future --- it's a
> > > > > one-way transition from not-ready-to-get-exit-status to
> > > > > ready-to-get-exit-status.
> > > >
> > > > What do you consider interesting state transitions? A listener on a pidfd
> > > > in epoll_wait() might be interested if the process execs for example.
> > > > That's a very valid use-case for e.g. systemd.
> > > > We can't use EPOLLIN for that too otherwise you'd need to to waitid(_WNOHANG)
> > > > to check whether an exit status can be read which is not nice and then you
> > > > multiplex different meanings on the same bit.
> > > > I would prefer if the exit status can only be read from the parent which is
> > > > clean and the least complicated semantics, i.e. Linus waitid() idea.
> > > > EPOLLIN on a pidfd could very well mean that data can be read via
> > > > a read() on the pidfd *other* than the exit status. The read could e.g.
> > > > give you a lean struct that indicates the type of state transition: NOTIFY_EXIT,
> > > > NOTIFY_EXEC, etc.. This way we are not bound to a specific poll event indicating
> > > > a specific state.
> > > > Though there's a case to be made that EPOLLHUP could indicate process exit
> > > > and EPOLLIN a state change + read().
> > >
> > > According to Linus, POLLHUP usually indicates that something is readable:
> >
> > I don't think Linus said that POLLHUP means readable. He did say that
> > it usually doesn't make sense to set POLLHUP without POLLIN, but
> > that's not the same as POLLHUP indicating readability.
>
> Ok, fair enough.
>
> > > https://lkml.org/lkml/2019/4/18/1181
> > > "So generally a HUP condition should mean that POLLIN and POLLOUT also
> > > get set. Not because there's any actual _data_ to be read, but simply
> > > because the read will not block."
> > >
> > > I feel the future state changes such as for NOTIFY_EXEC can easily be
> > > implemented on top of this patch.
> > >
> > > Just for the exit notification purposes, the states are:
> > > if process has exit_state == 0, block.
> > > if process is zombie/dead but not reaped, then return POLLIN
> > > if process is reaped, then return POLLIN | POLLHUP
> >
> > Setting POLLHUP when the process is reaped is harmless, but I don't
> > think it's useful. I can't think of a reason that anyone would care.
>
> We can also outright remove it. Oleg seemed to not mind it, in fact he said
> it may be useful to indicate the reap status so at least I am inclined to
> leave it in.
>
> > You can't block and wait on reaping, so you could only busy-wait, and
> > you can look for ESRCH on any proc file today to detect reaping. I'd
>
> proc file reading is racy though. We shouldn't even talk about that since the
> point of pidfd is to avoid such raw "pid" related races.

It's not racy if you have a procfs dirfd handle open anyway. But since
we moved to the two-kinds-of-file-descriptor model, there's no way to
reliably open the procfs directory FD for a process that's exited but
that's not yet been reaped. The fdinfo mechanism doesn't solve this
problem. But adding a reap flag to poll output doesn't close the race
either.

I don't see any actual benefit to knowing via poll whether a process
was reaped. If you can identify such a use case, great. Otherwise, I
want to keep the poll interface simple and not specify semantics for
POLLHUP.

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