Message-ID: <2aed675e-0408-c812-3e1a-b90710c528f2@gmail.com>
Date:   Fri, 10 May 2019 14:52:59 -0700
From:   Frank Rowand <frowand.list@...il.com>
To:     Logan Gunthorpe <logang@...tatee.com>,
        Theodore Ts'o <tytso@....edu>, Tim.Bird@...y.com,
        knut.omang@...cle.com, gregkh@...uxfoundation.org,
        brendanhiggins@...gle.com, keescook@...gle.com,
        kieran.bingham@...asonboard.com, mcgrof@...nel.org,
        robh@...nel.org, sboyd@...nel.org, shuah@...nel.org,
        devicetree@...r.kernel.org, dri-devel@...ts.freedesktop.org,
        kunit-dev@...glegroups.com, linux-doc@...r.kernel.org,
        linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org, linux-kbuild@...r.kernel.org,
        linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, linux-kselftest@...r.kernel.org,
        linux-nvdimm@...ts.01.org, linux-um@...ts.infradead.org,
        Alexander.Levin@...rosoft.com, amir73il@...il.com,
        dan.carpenter@...cle.com, dan.j.williams@...el.com,
        daniel@...ll.ch, jdike@...toit.com, joel@....id.au,
        julia.lawall@...6.fr, khilman@...libre.com, mpe@...erman.id.au,
        pmladek@...e.com, richard@....at, rientjes@...gle.com,
        rostedt@...dmis.org, wfg@...ux.intel.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 00/17] kunit: introduce KUnit, the Linux kernel unit
 testing framework

On 5/9/19 3:20 PM, Logan Gunthorpe wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2019-05-09 3:42 p.m., Theodore Ts'o wrote:
>> On Thu, May 09, 2019 at 11:12:12AM -0700, Frank Rowand wrote:
>>>
>>>     "My understanding is that the intent of KUnit is to avoid booting a kernel on
>>>     real hardware or in a virtual machine.  That seems to be a matter of semantics
>>>     to me because isn't invoking a UML Linux just running the Linux kernel in
>>>     a different form of virtualization?
>>>
>>>     So I do not understand why KUnit is an improvement over kselftest.
>>>
>>>     ...
>>> 
>>> What am I missing?"
>> 
>> One major difference: kselftest requires a userspace environment;
>> it starts systemd, requires a root file system from which you can
>> load modules, etc.  Kunit doesn't require a root file system;
>> doesn't require that you start systemd; doesn't allow you to run
>> arbitrary perl, python, bash, etc. scripts.  As such, it's much
>> lighter weight than kselftest, and will have much less overhead
>> before you can start running tests.  So it's not really the same
>> kind of virtualization.

I'm back to reply to this subthread, after a delay, as promised.


> I largely agree with everything Ted has said in this thread, but I
> wonder if we are conflating two different ideas that is causing an
> impasse. From what I see, Kunit actually provides two different
> things:

> 1) An execution environment that can be run very quickly in userspace
> on tests in the kernel source. This speeds up the tests and gives a
> lot of benefit to developers using those tests because they can get
> feedback on their code changes a *lot* quicker.

kselftest in-kernel tests provide exactly the same when the tests are
configured as "built-in" code instead of as modules.


> 2) A framework to write unit tests that provides a lot of the same
> facilities as other common unit testing frameworks from userspace
> (ie. a runner that runs a list of tests and a bunch of helpers such
> as KUNIT_EXPECT_* to simplify test passes and failures).

> The first item from Kunit is novel and I see absolutely no overlap
> with anything kselftest does. It's also the valuable thing I'd like
> to see merged and grow.

The first item exists in kselftest.


> The second item, arguably, does have significant overlap with
> kselftest. Whether you are running short tests in a light weight UML
> environment or higher level tests in an heavier VM the two could be
> using the same framework for writing or defining in-kernel tests. It
> *may* also be valuable for some people to be able to run all the UML
> tests in the heavy VM environment along side other higher level
> tests.
> 
> Looking at the selftests tree in the repo, we already have similar
> items to what Kunit is adding as I described in point (2) above.
> kselftest_harness.h contains macros like EXPECT_* and ASSERT_* with
> very similar intentions to the new KUNIT_EXECPT_* and KUNIT_ASSERT_*
> macros.

I might be wrong here because I have not dug deeply enough into the
code!!!  Does this framework apply to the userspace tests, the
in-kernel tests, or both?  My "not having dug enough GUESS" is that
these are for the user space tests (although if so, they could be
extended for in-kernel use also).

So I think this one maybe does not have an overlap between KUnit
and kselftest.


> However, the number of users of this harness appears to be quite
> small. Most of the code in the selftests tree seems to be a random
> mismash of scripts and userspace code so it's not hard to see it as
> something completely different from the new Kunit:
> $ git grep --files-with-matches kselftest_harness.h *
> Documentation/dev-tools/kselftest.rst
> MAINTAINERS
> tools/testing/selftests/kselftest_harness.h
> tools/testing/selftests/net/tls.c
> tools/testing/selftests/rtc/rtctest.c
> tools/testing/selftests/seccomp/Makefile
> tools/testing/selftests/seccomp/seccomp_bpf.c
> tools/testing/selftests/uevent/Makefile
> tools/testing/selftests/uevent/uevent_filtering.c


> Thus, I can personally see a lot of value in integrating the kunit
> test framework with this kselftest harness. There's only a small
> number of users of the kselftest harness today, so one way or another
> it seems like getting this integrated early would be a good idea.
> Letting Kunit and Kselftests progress independently for a few years
> will only make this worse and may become something we end up
> regretting.

Yes, this I agree with.

-Frank

> 
> Logan

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