Date:   Wed, 15 May 2019 19:48:50 +0200
From:   Greg KH <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>
To:     Kai-Heng Feng <kai.heng.feng@...onical.com>
Cc:     devel@...verdev.osuosl.org, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
        Larry Finger <Larry.Finger@...inger.net>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] staging: Add rtl8821ce PCIe WiFi driver

On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 01:40:00AM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
> at 00:39, Greg KH <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 09:06:44PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
> > > at 20:33, Greg KH <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 07:54:58PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
> > > > > at 19:40, Greg KH <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 07:24:01PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
> > > > > > > The rtl8821ce can be found on many HP and Lenovo laptops.
> > > > > > > Users have been using out-of-tree module for a while,
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > The new Realtek WiFi driver, rtw88, will support rtl8821ce in 2020 or
> > > > > > > later.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Where is that driver, and why is it going to take so
> > > > > > long to get merged?
> > > > > 
> > > > > rtw88 is in 5.2 now, but it doesn’t support 8821ce yet.
> > > > > 
> > > > > They plan to add the support in 2020.
> > > > 
> > > > Who is "they" and what is needed to support this device and why wait a
> > > > full year?
> > > 
> > > “They” refers to Realtek.
> > > It’s their plan so I can’t really answer that on behalf of Realtek.
> > 
> > Where did they say that?  Any reason their developers are not on this
> > patch?
> > 
> > > > > > > 296 files changed, 206166 insertions(+)
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Ugh, why do we keep having to add the whole mess for
> > > > > > every single one of
> > > > > > these devices?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Because Realtek devices are unfortunately ubiquitous so the support is
> > > > > better come from kernel.
> > > > 
> > > > That's not the issue here.  The issue is that we keep adding the same
> > > > huge driver files to the kernel tree, over and over, with no real change
> > > > at all.  We have seen almost all of these files in other realtek
> > > > drivers, right?
> > > 
> > > Yes. They use one single driver to support different SoCs, different
> > > architectures and even different OSes.
> > 
> > Well, they try to, it doesn't always work :(
> > 
> > > That’s why it’s a mess.
> > 
> > Oh we all know why this is a mess.  But they have been saying for
> > _years_ they would clean up this mess.  So push back, I'm not going to
> > take another 200k lines for a simple wifi driver, again.
> > 
> > Along those lines, we should probably just delete the other old realtek
> > drivers that don't seem to be going anywhere from staging as well,
> > because those are just confusing people.
> > 
> > > > Why not use the ones we already have?
> > > 
> > > It’s virtually impossible because Realtek’s mega wifi driver uses tons of
> > > #ifdefs, only one chip can be selected to be supported at compile time.
> > 
> > That's not what I asked.
> > 
> > I want to know why they can't just add support for their new devices to
> > one of the many existing realtek drivers we already have.  That is the
> > simpler way, and the correct way to do this.  We don't do this by adding
> > 200k lines, again.
> > 
> > > > But better yet, why not add proper support for this hardware and not use
> > > > a staging driver?
> > > 
> > > Realtek plans to add the support in 2020, if everything goes well.
> > 
> > Device "goes well" please.  And when in 2020?  And why 2020?  Why not
> > 2022?  2024?
> > 
> > > Meanwhile, many users of HP and Lenovo laptops are using out-of-tree
> > > driver,
> > > some of them are stuck to older kernels because they don’t know how to fix
> > > the driver. So I strongly think having this in kernel is beneficial
> > > to many
> > > users, even it’s only for a year.
> > 
> > So who is going to be responsible for "fixing the driver" for all new
> > kernel api updates?  I'm tired of seeing new developers get lost in the
> > maze of yet-another realtek wifi driver.  We've been putting up with
> > this crud for years, and it has not gotten any better if you want to add
> > another 200k lines for some unknown amount of time with the hope that a
> > driver might magically show up one day.
> 
> I have no idea why they haven’t made everything upstream, and I do hope they
> did a better job, so I don’t need to cleanup their driver and send it
> upstream :(
> 
> So basically I can’t answer any of your questions. As Larry suggested, their
> driver should be hosted separately and maybe by downstream distro.

As it sounds like you have talked to these developers (i.e. they told
you 2020), you do have a way to communicate our concerns.  Please do
that, or feel free to send me their contact information and I will be
glad to talk to them about this.

thanks,

greg k-h

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