Date:   Thu, 6 Jun 2019 16:58:51 -0400
From:   Kris Van Hees <kris.van.hees@...cle.com>
To:     Chris Mason <clm@...com>
Cc:     Kris Van Hees <kris.van.hees@...cle.com>,
        Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@...il.com>,
        "netdev@...r.kernel.org" <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
        "bpf@...r.kernel.org" <bpf@...r.kernel.org>,
        "dtrace-devel@....oracle.com" <dtrace-devel@....oracle.com>,
        "linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        "rostedt@...dmis.org" <rostedt@...dmis.org>,
        "mhiramat@...nel.org" <mhiramat@...nel.org>,
        "acme@...nel.org" <acme@...nel.org>,
        "ast@...nel.org" <ast@...nel.org>,
        "daniel@...earbox.net" <daniel@...earbox.net>,
        "peterz@...radead.org" <peterz@...radead.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 00/11] bpf, trace, dtrace: DTrace BPF program type
 implementation and sample use

On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 03:25:25PM +0000, Chris Mason wrote:
> 
> I'm being pretty liberal with chopping down quoted material to help 
> emphasize a particular opinion about how to bootstrap existing 
> out-of-tree projects into the kernel.  My goal here is to talk more 
> about the process and less about the technical details, so please 
> forgive me if I've ignored or changed the technical meaning of anything 
> below.
> 
> On 30 May 2019, at 12:15, Kris Van Hees wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 01:28:44PM -0700, Alexei Starovoitov wrote:
> >
> > ... I believe that the discussion that has been going on in other
> > emails has shown that while introducing a program type that provides a
> > generic (abstracted) context is a different approach from what has 
> > been done
> > so far, it is a new use case that provides for additional ways in 
> > which BPF
> > can be used.
> >
> 
> [ ... ]
> 
> >
> > Yes and no.  It depends on what you are trying to do with the BPF 
> > program that
> > is attached to the different events.  From a tracing perspective, 
> > providing a
> > single BPF program with an abstract context would ...
> 
> [ ... ]
> 
> >
> > In this model kprobe/ksys_write and 
> > tracepoint/syscalls/sys_enter_write are
> > equivalent for most tracing purposes ...
> 
> [ ... ]
> 
> >
> > I agree with what you are saying but I am presenting an additional use 
> > case
> 
> [ ... ]
> 
> >>
> >> All that aside the kernel support for shared libraries is an awesome
> >> feature to have and a bunch of folks want to see it happen, but
> >> it's not a blocker for 'dtrace to bpf' user space work.
> >> libbpf can be taught to do this 'pseudo shared library' feature
> >> while 'dtrace to bpf' side doesn't need to do anything special.
> 
> [ ... ]
> 
> This thread intermixes some abstract conceptual changes with smaller 
> technical improvements, and in general it follows a familiar pattern 
> other out-of-tree projects have hit while trying to adapt the kernel to 
> their existing code.  Just from this one email, I quoted the abstract 
> models with use cases etc, and this is often where the discussions side 
> track into less productive areas.
> 
> >
> > So you are basically saying that I should redesign DTrace?
> 
> In your place, I would have removed features and adapted dtrace as much 
> as possible to require the absolute minimum of kernel patches, or even 
> better, no patches at all.  I'd document all of the features that worked 
> as expected, and underline anything either missing or suboptimal that 
> needed additional kernel changes.  Then I'd focus on expanding the 
> community of people using dtrace against the mainline kernel, and work 
> through the series features and improvements one by one upstream over 
> time.

Well, that is actually what I am doing in the sense that the proposed patches
are quite minimal and lie at the core of the style of tracing that we need to
support.  So I definitely agree with your statement.  The code I posted
implements a minimal set of features (hardly any at all), although as Peter
pointed out, some more can be stripped from it and I have done that already
in a revision of the patchset I was preparing.

> Your current approach relies on an all-or-nothing landing of patches 
> upstream, and this consistently leads to conflict every time a project 
> tries it.  A more incremental approach will require bigger changes on 
> the dtrace application side, but over time it'll be much easier to 
> justify your kernel changes.  You won't have to talk in abstract models, 
> and you'll have many more concrete examples of people asking for dtrace 
> features against mainline.  Most importantly, you'll make dtrace 
> available on more kernels than just the absolute latest mainline, and 
> removing dependencies makes the project much easier for new users to 
> try.

I am not sure where I gave the impression that my approach relies on an
all-or-nothing landing of patches.  My intent (and the content of the patches
reflects that I think) was to work from a minimal base and build on that,
adding things as needed.  Granted, it depends on a rather crucial feature in
the design that apparently should be avoided for now as well, and I can
definitely work on avoiding that for now.  But I hope that it is clear from
the patch set I posted that an incremental approach is indeed what I intend
to do.

Thank you for putting it in clear terms and explaining patfalls that have
be observed in the past with projects.  I will proceed with an even more
minimalist approach.

To that end, could you advice on who patches should be Cc'd to to have the
first minimal code submitted to a tools/dtrace directory in the kernel tree?

	Kris

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