Message-Id: <E0925E1F-E5F2-4457-8704-47B6E64FE3F3@amacapital.net>
Date:   Mon, 10 Jun 2019 11:22:13 -0700
From:   Andy Lutomirski <luto@...capital.net>
To:     Casey Schaufler <casey@...aufler-ca.com>
Cc:     Andy Lutomirski <luto@...nel.org>,
        Stephen Smalley <sds@...ho.nsa.gov>,
        David Howells <dhowells@...hat.com>,
        Al Viro <viro@...iv.linux.org.uk>,
        USB list <linux-usb@...r.kernel.org>,
        LSM List <linux-security-module@...r.kernel.org>,
        Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>,
        raven@...maw.net, Linux FS Devel <linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org>,
        Linux API <linux-api@...r.kernel.org>,
        linux-block@...r.kernel.org, keyrings@...r.kernel.org,
        LKML <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        Paul Moore <paul@...l-moore.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC][PATCH 00/13] Mount, FS, Block and Keyrings notifications [ver #4]


> On Jun 10, 2019, at 11:01 AM, Casey Schaufler <casey@...aufler-ca.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 6/10/2019 9:42 AM, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 9:34 AM Casey Schaufler <casey@...aufler-ca.com> wrote:
>>>> On 6/10/2019 8:21 AM, Stephen Smalley wrote:
>>>>> On 6/7/19 10:17 AM, David Howells wrote:
>>>>> Hi Al,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Here's a set of patches to add a general variable-length notification queue
>>>>> concept and to add sources of events for:
>>>>> 
>>>>>  (1) Mount topology events, such as mounting, unmounting, mount expiry,
>>>>>      mount reconfiguration.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  (2) Superblock events, such as R/W<->R/O changes, quota overrun and I/O
>>>>>      errors (not complete yet).
>>>>> 
>>>>>  (3) Key/keyring events, such as creating, linking and removal of keys.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  (4) General device events (single common queue) including:
>>>>> 
>>>>>      - Block layer events, such as device errors
>>>>> 
>>>>>      - USB subsystem events, such as device/bus attach/remove, device
>>>>>        reset, device errors.
>>>>> 
>>>>> One of the reasons for this is so that we can remove the issue of processes
>>>>> having to repeatedly and regularly scan /proc/mounts, which has proven to
>>>>> be a system performance problem.  To further aid this, the fsinfo() syscall
>>>>> on which this patch series depends, provides a way to access superblock and
>>>>> mount information in binary form without the need to parse /proc/mounts.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> LSM support is included, but controversial:
>>>>> 
>>>>>  (1) The creds of the process that did the fput() that reduced the refcount
>>>>>      to zero are cached in the file struct.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  (2) __fput() overrides the current creds with the creds from (1) whilst
>>>>>      doing the cleanup, thereby making sure that the creds seen by the
>>>>>      destruction notification generated by mntput() appears to come from
>>>>>      the last fputter.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  (3) security_post_notification() is called for each queue that we might
>>>>>      want to post a notification into, thereby allowing the LSM to prevent
>>>>>      covert communications.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  (?) Do I need to add security_set_watch(), say, to rule on whether a watch
>>>>>      may be set in the first place?  I might need to add a variant per
>>>>>      watch-type.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  (?) Do I really need to keep track of the process creds in which an
>>>>>      implicit object destruction happened?  For example, imagine you create
>>>>>      an fd with fsopen()/fsmount().  It is marked to dissolve the mount it
>>>>>      refers to on close unless move_mount() clears that flag.  Now, imagine
>>>>>      someone looking at that fd through procfs at the same time as you exit
>>>>>      due to an error.  The LSM sees the destruction notification come from
>>>>>      the looker if they happen to do their fput() after yours.
>>>> I remain unconvinced that (1), (2), (3), and the final (?) above are a good idea.
>>>> 
>>>> For SELinux, I would expect that one would implement a collection of per watch-type WATCH permission checks on the target object (or to some well-defined object label like the kernel SID if there is no object) that allow receipt of all notifications of that watch-type for objects related to the target object, where "related to" is defined per watch-type.
>>>> 
>>>> I wouldn't expect SELinux to implement security_post_notification() at all.  I can't see how one can construct a meaningful, stable policy for it.  I'd argue that the triggering process is not posting the notification; the kernel is posting the notification and the watcher has been authorized to receive it.
>>> I cannot agree. There is an explicit action by a subject that results
>>> in information being delivered to an object. Just like a signal or a
>>> UDP packet delivery. Smack handles this kind of thing just fine. The
>>> internal mechanism that results in the access is irrelevant from
>>> this viewpoint. I can understand how a mechanism like SELinux that
>>> works on finer granularity might view it differently.
>> I think you really need to give an example of a coherent policy that
>> needs this.
> 
> I keep telling you, and you keep ignoring what I say.
> 
>>  As it stands, your analogy seems confusing.
> 
> It's pretty simple. I have given both the abstract
> and examples.

You gave the /dev/null example, which is inapplicable to this patchset.

> 
>>  If someone
>> changes the system clock, we don't restrict who is allowed to be
>> notified (via, for example, TFD_TIMER_CANCEL_ON_SET) that the clock
>> was changed based on who changed the clock.
> 
> That's right. The system clock is not an object that
> unprivileged processes can modify. In fact, it is not
> an object at all. If you care to look, you will see that
> Smack does nothing with the clock.

And this is different from the mount tree how?

> 
>>  Similarly, if someone
>> tries to receive a packet on a socket, we check whether they have the
>> right to receive on that socket (from the endpoint in question) and,
>> if the sender is local, whether the sender can send to that socket.
>> We do not check whether the sender can send to the receiver.
> 
> Bzzzt! Smack sure does.

This seems dubious. I’m still trying to get you to explain to a non-Smack person why this makes sense.

> 
>> The signal example is inapplicable.
> 
> From a modeling viewpoint the actions are identical.

This seems incorrect to me and, I think, to most everyone else reading this. Can you explain?

In SELinux-ese, when you write to a file, the subject is the writer and the object is the file.  When you send a signal to a process, the object is the target process.

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