lists.openwall.net   lists  /  announce  owl-users  owl-dev  john-users  john-dev  passwdqc-users  yescrypt  popa3d-users  /  oss-security  kernel-hardening  musl  sabotage  tlsify  passwords  /  crypt-dev  xvendor  /  Bugtraq  Full-Disclosure  linux-kernel  linux-netdev  linux-ext4  linux-hardening  PHC 
Open Source and information security mailing list archives
 
Hash Suite: Windows password security audit tool. GUI, reports in PDF.
[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [thread-next>] [day] [month] [year] [list]
Date:   Fri, 12 Jun 2020 06:09:11 -0700
From:   Jacob Pan <jacob.jun.pan@...ux.intel.com>
To:     "Tian, Kevin" <kevin.tian@...el.com>
Cc:     Alex Williamson <alex.williamson@...hat.com>,
        "iommu@...ts.linux-foundation.org" <iommu@...ts.linux-foundation.org>,
        LKML <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        Lu Baolu <baolu.lu@...ux.intel.com>,
        Joerg Roedel <joro@...tes.org>,
        David Woodhouse <dwmw2@...radead.org>,
        "Liu, Yi L" <yi.l.liu@...el.com>,
        "Raj, Ashok" <ashok.raj@...el.com>,
        "Christoph Hellwig" <hch@...radead.org>,
        Jean-Philippe Brucker <jean-philippe@...aro.com>,
        Eric Auger <eric.auger@...hat.com>,
        "Jonathan Corbet" <corbet@....net>, jacob.jun.pan@...ux.intel.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 1/3] docs: IOMMU user API

On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 07:38:44 +0000
"Tian, Kevin" <kevin.tian@...el.com> wrote:

> > From: Jacob Pan <jacob.jun.pan@...ux.intel.com>
> > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2020 8:27 AM
> > 
> > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:40:47 -0600
> > Alex Williamson <alex.williamson@...hat.com> wrote:
> >   
> > > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:52:05 -0700
> > > Jacob Pan <jacob.jun.pan@...ux.intel.com> wrote:
> > >  
> > > > Hi Alex,
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:47:41 -0600
> > > > Alex Williamson <alex.williamson@...hat.com> wrote:
> > > >  
> > > > > On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 21:12:13 -0700
> > > > > Jacob Pan <jacob.jun.pan@...ux.intel.com> wrote:
> > > > >  
> > > > > > IOMMU UAPI is newly introduced to support communications  
> > between  
> > > > > > guest virtual IOMMU and host IOMMU. There has been lots of
> > > > > > discussions on how it should work with VFIO UAPI and
> > > > > > userspace in general.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This document is indended to clarify the UAPI design and
> > > > > > usage. The mechenics of how future extensions should be
> > > > > > achieved are also covered in this documentation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Signed-off-by: Liu Yi L <yi.l.liu@...el.com>
> > > > > > Signed-off-by: Jacob Pan <jacob.jun.pan@...ux.intel.com>
> > > > > > ---
> > > > > >  Documentation/userspace-api/iommu.rst | 210
> > > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 1 file changed, 210
> > > > > > insertions(+) create mode 100644
> > > > > > Documentation/userspace-api/iommu.rst
> > > > > >
> > > > > > diff --git a/Documentation/userspace-api/iommu.rst
> > > > > > b/Documentation/userspace-api/iommu.rst new file mode 100644
> > > > > > index 000000000000..e95dc5a04a41
> > > > > > --- /dev/null
> > > > > > +++ b/Documentation/userspace-api/iommu.rst
> > > > > > @@ -0,0 +1,210 @@
> > > > > > +.. SPDX-License-Identifier: GPL-2.0
> > > > > > +.. iommu:
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +=====================================
> > > > > > +IOMMU Userspace API
> > > > > > +=====================================
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +IOMMU UAPI is used for virtualization cases where
> > > > > > communications are +needed between physical and virtual
> > > > > > IOMMU drivers. For native +usage, IOMMU is a system device
> > > > > > which does not need to communicate +with user space
> > > > > > directly. +
> > > > > > +The primary use cases are guest Shared Virtual Address
> > > > > > (SVA) and +guest IO virtual address (IOVA), wherein virtual
> > > > > > IOMMU (vIOMMU) is +required to communicate with the
> > > > > > physical IOMMU in the host. +
> > > > > > +.. contents:: :local:
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +Functionalities
> > > > > > +====================================================
> > > > > > +Communications of user and kernel involve both directions.
> > > > > > The +supported user-kernel APIs are as follows:
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +1. Alloc/Free PASID
> > > > > > +2. Bind/unbind guest PASID (e.g. Intel VT-d)
> > > > > > +3. Bind/unbind guest PASID table (e.g. ARM sMMU)
> > > > > > +4. Invalidate IOMMU caches
> > > > > > +5. Service page request
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +Requirements
> > > > > > +====================================================
> > > > > > +The IOMMU UAPIs are generic and extensible to meet the
> > > > > > following +requirements:
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +1. Emulated and para-virtualised vIOMMUs
> > > > > > +2. Multiple vendors (Intel VT-d, ARM sMMU, etc.)
> > > > > > +3. Extensions to the UAPI shall not break existing user
> > > > > > space +
> > > > > > +Interfaces
> > > > > > +====================================================
> > > > > > +Although the data structures defined in IOMMU UAPI are
> > > > > > self-contained, +there is no user API functions introduced.
> > > > > > Instead, IOMMU UAPI is +designed to work with existing user
> > > > > > driver frameworks such as VFIO. +
> > > > > > +Extension Rules & Precautions
> > > > > > +-----------------------------
> > > > > > +When IOMMU UAPI gets extended, the data structures can
> > > > > > *only* be +modified in two ways:
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +1. Adding new fields by re-purposing the padding[] field.
> > > > > > No size change. +2. Adding new union members at the end. May
> > > > > > increase in size. +
> > > > > > +No new fields can be added *after* the variable size union
> > > > > > in that it +will break backward compatibility when offset
> > > > > > moves. In both cases, a +new flag must be accompanied with
> > > > > > a new field such that the IOMMU +driver can process the
> > > > > > data based on the new flag. Version field is +only reserved
> > > > > > for the unlikely event of UAPI upgrade at its entirety. +
> > > > > > +It's *always* the caller's responsibility to indicate the
> > > > > > size of the +structure passed by setting argsz
> > > > > > appropriately. +
> > > > > > +When IOMMU UAPI extension results in size increase, user
> > > > > > such as VFIO +has to handle the following scenarios:
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +1. User and kernel has exact size match
> > > > > > +2. An older user with older kernel header (smaller UAPI
> > > > > > size) running on a
> > > > > > +   newer kernel (larger UAPI size)
> > > > > > +3. A newer user with newer kernel header (larger UAPI size)
> > > > > > running
> > > > > > +   on a older kernel.
> > > > > > +4. A malicious/misbehaving user pass illegal/invalid size
> > > > > > but within
> > > > > > +   range. The data may contain garbage.
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +Feature Checking
> > > > > > +----------------
> > > > > > +While launching a guest with vIOMMU, it is important to
> > > > > > ensure that host +can support the UAPI data structures to
> > > > > > be used for vIOMMU-pIOMMU +communications. Without the
> > > > > > upfront  
> > compatibility  
> > > > > > checking, future +faults are difficult to report even in
> > > > > > normal conditions. For example, +TLB invalidations should
> > > > > > always succeed from vIOMMU's +perspective. There is no
> > > > > > architectural way to report back to the vIOMMU +if the UAPI
> > > > > > data is incompatible. For this reason the following IOMMU
> > > > > > +UAPIs cannot fail: +
> > > > > > +1. Free PASID
> > > > > > +2. Unbind guest PASID
> > > > > > +3. Unbind guest PASID table (SMMU)
> > > > > > +4. Cache invalidate
> > > > > > +5. Page response
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +User applications such as QEMU is expected to import kernel
> > > > > > UAPI +headers. Only backward compatibility is supported. For
> > > > > > example, an +older QEMU (with older kernel header) can run
> > > > > > on newer kernel. Newer +QEMU (with new kernel header) may
> > > > > > fail on older kernel.  
> > > > >
> > > > > "Build your user application against newer kernels and it may
> > > > > break on older kernels" is not a great selling point of this
> > > > > UAPI.  Clearly new features may not be available on older
> > > > > kernels and an application that depends on a newer feature
> > > > > may be restricted to newer kernels.  
> > > > Perhaps "fail on older kernel" is not the right statement. I
> > > > meant to say "Newer QEMU (with new kernel header) may fail the
> > > > compatibility check on older kernel". Here compatibility check
> > > > involves argsz check and feature check.
> > > >
> > > > Does it sound right?  
> > >
> > > If simply recompiling QEMU against a new kernel header causes it
> > > to fail on an old kernel, we've done something very wrong in this
> > > UAPI. 
> > 
> > I agree we should make best effort to support the fields in the new
> > header that was supported in the older kernel.
> > 
> > But there will be cases that new app fails on old kernel if the new
> > fields from the new header are used. Do we have consensus on this?  
> 
> Yes, I think that is also what Alex meant. If new feature/field is
> touched the app will fail for sure on old kernel. But if only old
> features/fields are touched then the app should work correctly. This
> is the case by simply recompiling Qemu against a new kernel header,
> where no new feature is supposed to be used. Qemu may pass an argsz
> bigger than what old kernel supports, but old kernel only copies the
> size that it knows and serve the features that it supports according
> to flags.
> 
great, thanks for the confirmation.

> >   
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +IOMMU vendor driver should report the below features to
> > > > > > IOMMU UAPI +consumers (e.g. via VFIO).
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +1. IOMMU_NESTING_FEAT_SYSWIDE_PASID
> > > > > > +2. IOMMU_NESTING_FEAT_BIND_PGTBL
> > > > > > +3. IOMMU_NESTING_FEAT_BIND_PASID_TABLE
> > > > > > +4. IOMMU_NESTING_FEAT_CACHE_INVLD
> > > > > > +5. IOMMU_NESTING_FEAT_PAGE_REQUEST
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +Take VFIO as example, upon request from VFIO user space
> > > > > > (e.g. QEMU), +VFIO kernel code shall query IOMMU vendor
> > > > > > driver for the support of +the above features. Query result
> > > > > > can then be reported back to the +user-space caller.
> > > > > > Details can be found in +Documentation/driver-api/vfio.rst.
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +Data Passing Example with VFIO
> > > > > > +------------------------------
> > > > > > +As the ubiquitous userspace driver framework, VFIO is
> > > > > > already IOMMU +aware and share many key concepts such as
> > > > > > device model, group, and +protection domain. Other user
> > > > > > driver frameworks can also be extended +to support IOMMU
> > > > > > UAPI but it is outside the scope of this document. +
> > > > > > +In this tight-knit VFIO-IOMMU interface, the ultimate
> > > > > > consumer of the +IOMMU UAPI data is the host IOMMU driver.
> > > > > > VFIO facilitates user-kernel +transport, capability
> > > > > > checking, security, and life cycle management of +process
> > > > > > address space ID (PASID). +
> > > > > > +Unlike normal user data passed via VFIO UAPI IOTCL, IOMMU
> > > > > > driver is the +ultimate consumer of its UAPI data. At VFIO
> > > > > > layer, the IOMMU UAPI data +is wrapped in a VFIO UAPI data
> > > > > > for sanity checking. It follows the +pattern below:
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +::
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +   struct {
> > > > > > +	__u32 argsz;
> > > > > > +	__u32 flags;
> > > > > > +	__u8  data[];
> > > > > > +  }
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +Here data[] contains the IOMMU UAPI data structures.
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +In order to determine the size and feature set of the user
> > > > > > data, argsz +and flags are also embedded in the IOMMU UAPI
> > > > > > data structures. +A "__u32 argsz" field is *always* at the
> > > > > > beginning of each structure. +
> > > > > > +For example:
> > > > > > +::
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +   struct iommu_gpasid_bind_data {
> > > > > > +	__u32 argsz;
> > > > > > +	__u32 version;
> > > > > > +	#define IOMMU_PASID_FORMAT_INTEL_VTD	1
> > > > > > +	__u32 format;
> > > > > > +	#define IOMMU_SVA_GPASID_VAL	(1 << 0)
> > > > > > +	__u64 flags;
> > > > > > +	__u64 gpgd;
> > > > > > +	__u64 hpasid;
> > > > > > +	__u64 gpasid;
> > > > > > +	__u32 addr_width;
> > > > > > +	__u8  padding[12];
> > > > > > +	/* Vendor specific data */
> > > > > > +	union {
> > > > > > +		struct iommu_gpasid_bind_data_vtd vtd;
> > > > > > +	};
> > > > > > +  };
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +Use bind guest PASID as an example, VFIO code shall process
> > > > > > IOMMU UAPI +request as follows:
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +::
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > + 1        /* Minsz must include IOMMU UAPI "argsz" of
> > > > > > __u32 */
> > > > > > + 2        minsz = offsetofend(struct vfio_iommu_type1_bind,
> > > > > > flags) +
> > > > > > +                              sizeof(u32);  
> > > > >
> > > > > In the example structure above:
> > > > >  
> > > > > > +   struct {
> > > > > > +	__u32 argsz;
> > > > > > +	__u32 flags;
> > > > > > +	__u8  data[];
> > > > > > +  }  
> > > > >
> > > > > This presumes that vfio does not use flags to identify a
> > > > > different layout, for example a field before data or defining
> > > > > a flag that provides no data.  IOW, the IOMMU guarantees
> > > > > argsz at the beginning of all structures, but let's not limit
> > > > > how vfio chooses to bundle that structure.  minsz should be
> > > > > based on flags, which we'll evaluate to determine how much
> > > > > more to copy. 
> > > > Got it, VFIO owns its flags therefore minsz. How about reword
> > > > the example data struct as:
> > > >    struct {
> > > > 	__u32 argsz;
> > > > 	__u32 flags;
> > > > 	__u8  data[];
> > > >   }
> > > >
> > > > Here data[] contains the IOMMU UAPI data structures. VFIO has
> > > > the freedom to bundle the data as well as parse data size based
> > > > on its own flags.
> > > >
> > > > In the example code:
> > > >
> > > > "Use bind guest PASID as an example, VFIO code shall first
> > > > process the flags field to determine the size to copy for IOMMU
> > > > UAPI. The flags could indicate different layout of the VFIO data
> > > > and the types of IOMMU UAPI data."  
> > >
> > > I think this should probably go no further than to say that the
> > > IOMMU UAPI data structure is expected to be embedded opaquely
> > > into the VFIO API, for example, VFIO may use a structure such as:
> > >
> > >     struct {
> > >  	__u32 argsz;
> > >  	__u32 flags;
> > >  	__u8  data[];
> > >    }
> > >
> > > where data[] contains an IOMMU UAPI structure, including the user
> > > provided argsz field relative to that embedded structure.  This
> > > format allows VFIO to multiplex multiple IOMMU UAPI interfaces
> > > through a reduced set of ioctls.
> > >  
> > Sounds good, thanks for the summary.
> >   
> > > > > > UAPI +request as follows:  
> > > >  
> > > > > > + 3        copy_from_user(&vfio_bind, (void __user *)arg,
> > > > > > minsz);
> > > > > > + 4
> > > > > > + 5        /* Check VFIO argsz */
> > > > > > + 6        if (vfio_bind.argsz < minsz)
> > > > > > + 7                return -EINVAL;
> > > > > > + 8
> > > > > > + 9        /* VFIO flags must be included in minsz */
> > > > > > + 10        switch (vfio_bind.flags) {
> > > > > > + 11        case VFIO_IOMMU_BIND_GUEST_PGTBL:
> > > > > > + 12                /*
> > > > > > + 13                 * Get the current IOMMU bind GPASID
> > > > > > data size,
> > > > > > + 14                 * which accounted for the largest union
> > > > > > member.
> > > > > > + 15                 */
> > > > > > + 16                data_size = sizeof(struct
> > > > > > iommu_gpasid_bind_data);
> > > > > > + 17                iommu_argsz = vfio_bind.argsz - minsz;  
> > > > >
> > > > > Note that by including the IOMMU UAPI argsz within minsz,
> > > > > this is incorrect.
> > > > >  
> > > > Good catch, should be:
> > > > iommu_argsz = vfio_bind.argsz - minsz - sizeof(u32)  
> 
> iommu_argsz = vfio_bind.argsz - minsz + sizeof(u32)
> 
you are right :)

> > > >  
> > > > > > + 18                if (iommu_argsz > data_size) {
> > > > > > + 19                        /* User data > current kernel */
> > > > > > + 20                        return -E2BIG;
> > > > > > + 21                }  
> > > > >
> > > > > Now I see why you're making the claim that QEMU compiled
> > > > > against an new kernel may not work on an older kernel.  We
> > > > > can do better.  The current sizeof the data structure should
> > > > > be the maximum we'll copy from the user, and we can update
> > > > > the user provided IOMMU UAPI argsz as we pass it down from
> > > > > the user to avoid exposing ourselves to an arbitrarily large
> > > > > user buffer. The IOMMU UAPI interfaces should then also use
> > > > > argsz and flags to determine whether the data is present for
> > > > > a specified flag. That should allow a user application
> > > > > compiled against a newer kernel header, but only using
> > > > > features found on older kernels to continue to work on older
> > > > > kernels, which seems like a basic requirement to me.  
> > > > I got your point. But I don't understand why VFIO layer will
> > > > update IOMMU argsz, IOMMU layer is not exposed to arbitrary
> > > > large user size in that it can not exceed the current UAPI data
> > > > size.  
> > >
> > > I was thinking about the case where userspace is compiled against
> > > a newer kernel and might provide argsz = sizeof(struct
> > > iommu_uapi_foo') but vfio only knows sizeof(struct
> > > iommu_uapi_foo).  We don't want to copy an arbitrary amount of
> > > data from userspace, so vfio would use MIN(argsz, sizeof(struct
> > > iommu_uapi_foo)) for the copy_from_user(). The IOMMU UAPI would
> > > then need to depend on the reduced argsz.
> > >
> > > But then I thought it even better if VFIO leaves the entire
> > > copy_from_user() to the layer consuming it.
> > >  
> > OK. Sounds good, that was what Kevin suggested also. I just wasn't
> > sure how much VFIO wants to inspect, I thought VFIO layer wanted to
> > do a sanity check.
> > 
> > Anyway, I will move copy_from_user to iommu uapi layer.
> >   
> > > > I agree we should make effort to allow features found in the
> > > > older kernel continue to work.  
> > >
> > > That's a requirement.  Breaking existing userspace without
> > > following a deprecation model is a bug.  
> > Sorry I don't understand why it is breaking existing userspace. If a
> > userspace is recompiled with new kernel header, it is not
> > *existing*.  
> 
> It is not the "existing binary", but is about the "existing code". 😊
> 
right. I guess there are two possibilities for apps to use kernel
header. we need to support both.
1. selectively import part of the header
2. include header

will do in the next round.

> Thanks,
> Kevin
> 
> >   
> > > But I think so too is the fact that this
> > > interface actually specifies and provides an example where simply
> > > recompiling existing userspace against a new kernel header where
> > > the size of structure may be changed to support a feature will
> > > cause that application to fail to run on older kernels.  That's
> > > not feasible for a distribution to support.
> > >  
> > I see your point, my assumption was that app (e.g. QEMU) imports new
> > header selectively. The new header must be imported with an
> > intention of using the new flags/fields. I guess this may not
> > *always* be true. I will add the support for older kernel to run on
> > new header (if no new fields/flags are used).
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks a lot!
> >   
> > > > > > + 22                copy_from_user(&iommu_bind, (void
> > > > > > __user *)
> > > > > > + 23                               vfio_bind.data,
> > > > > > iommu_argsz);
> > > > > > + 24               /*
> > > > > > + 25                * Deal with trailing bytes that is
> > > > > > bigger than user
> > > > > > + 26                * provided UAPI size but smaller than
> > > > > > the current
> > > > > > + 27                * kernel data size. Zero fill the
> > > > > > trailing bytes.
> > > > > > + 28                */
> > > > > > + 29                memset(iommu_bind + iommu_argsz, 0,
> > > > > > data_size -
> > > > > > + 30                       iommu_argsz;  
> > > > >
> > > > > The IOMMU UAPI interface having access to argsz should make
> > > > > this unnecessary.  Performing this memset() seems like it
> > > > > suggests to the next layer that it can rely on all fields
> > > > > being present and valid, which defeats the purpose of argsz.
> > > > >  
> > > > This memset does not suggest all fields are present and valid.
> > > > Only filter out the obvious invalid data based on current size.
> > > > My intention is to reduce the burden of checking not
> > > > eliminate.  
> > >
> > > I'm afraid that reducing the burden on the IOMMU UAPI layers
> > > leads to reduced visibility which leads to less stringent
> > > validation.  We're defining a UAPI layer for the kernel where
> > > VFIO just happens to be an interface through to that UAPI.  The
> > > UAPI should therefore be providing the validation, not VFIO.
> > > Create a wrapper in the IOMMU UAPI layer if you want to share
> > > common validation. 
> > > > > > + 31
> > > > > > + 32                iommu_sva_bind_gpasid(domain, dev,
> > > > > > iommu_bind_data);
> > > > > > + 33                break;
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +Case #1 & 2 are supported per backward compatibility rule.
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +Case #3 will fail with -E2BIG at line #20. Case  
> > > > >
> > > > > This is not acceptable IMO.
> > > > >  
> > > > Got it. Will copy up to the current data size and let IOMMU
> > > > driver handle supported flags/features.
> > > >  
> > > > > > +Case #4 may result in other error processed by IOMMU vendor
> > > > > > driver. However, +the damage shall not exceed the scope of
> > > > > > the offending user.  
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a concern in this double wrapped interface, the IOMMU
> > > > > UAPI layer may expect the vfio layer to validate the data.
> > > > > Zeroing the remainder of the data structure is evidence
> > > > > towards that.  The IOMMU UAPI layer needs to consider all of
> > > > > this untrusted, so why would we not reflect that by passing a
> > > > > __user pointer through to the IOMMU UAPI such that it can
> > > > > copy the data from the user itself rather than being mislead
> > > > > that the contents have been somehow verified?  Thanks,  
> > > > I am OK with IOMMU layer does the copy_from_user. One of my
> > > > original thinking was that since some APIs (e.g page response)
> > > > also used by in-kernel code, I would avoid user pointer or
> > > > another wrapper.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps need to clarify the roles of each layer, IMHO the roles
> > > > are:
> > > > - VFIO
> > > > 	1. bundle IOMMU UAPI data with flags & argsz
> > > > 	2. sanity check argsz > minsz
> > > > 	3. determine the copy_from_user size based on VFIO
> > > > flags & argsz
> > > >
> > > > - IOMMU UAPI
> > > > 	1. check argsz against current kernel IOMMU UAPI data
> > > > size, its own minsz
> > > > 	2. parse data based on feature/flags
> > > >
> > > > So if VFIO already can decide the copy_from_user size as in
> > > > VFIO.3, why can't it just do the copy as well. VFIO only checks
> > > > and ensures size, nothing specific to the content of IOMMU
> > > > UAPI. Does the role partition sound right?  
> > >
> > > As above, the only way that this can be a generic UAPI is if VFIO
> > > is just a passthrough, otherwise this just becomes VFIO API and
> > > we might as well not pretend we're creating a UAPI between the
> > > VFIO and IOMMU. If a second user of the UAPI would duplicate the
> > > code from VFIO, then it shouldn't be in VFIO.  Thanks,
> > >
> > > Alex
> > >  
> > 
> > [Jacob Pan]  

[Jacob Pan]

Powered by blists - more mailing lists