Message-Id: <EFAD6E2F-EC08-4EB3-9ECC-2A963C023FC5@amacapital.net>
Date:   Wed, 15 Jul 2020 22:18:20 -0700
From:   Andy Lutomirski <luto@...capital.net>
To:     Nicholas Piggin <npiggin@...il.com>
Cc:     Mathieu Desnoyers <mathieu.desnoyers@...icios.com>,
        Anton Blanchard <anton@...abs.org>,
        Arnd Bergmann <arnd@...db.de>,
        linux-arch <linux-arch@...r.kernel.org>,
        linux-kernel <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        linux-mm <linux-mm@...ck.org>,
        linuxppc-dev <linuxppc-dev@...ts.ozlabs.org>,
        Andy Lutomirski <luto@...nel.org>,
        Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>, x86 <x86@...nel.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 4/7] x86: use exit_lazy_tlb rather than membarrier_mm_sync_core_before_usermode



> On Jul 15, 2020, at 9:15 PM, Nicholas Piggin <npiggin@...il.com> wrote:
> 
> Excerpts from Mathieu Desnoyers's message of July 14, 2020 12:13 am:
>> ----- On Jul 13, 2020, at 9:47 AM, Nicholas Piggin npiggin@...il.com wrote:
>> 
>>> Excerpts from Nicholas Piggin's message of July 13, 2020 2:45 pm:
>>>> Excerpts from Andy Lutomirski's message of July 11, 2020 3:04 am:
>>>>> Also, as it stands, I can easily see in_irq() ceasing to promise to
>>>>> serialize.  There are older kernels for which it does not promise to
>>>>> serialize.  And I have plans to make it stop serializing in the
>>>>> nearish future.
>>>> 
>>>> You mean x86's return from interrupt? Sounds fun... you'll konw where to
>>>> update the membarrier sync code, at least :)
>>> 
>>> Oh, I should actually say Mathieu recently clarified a return from
>>> interrupt doesn't fundamentally need to serialize in order to support
>>> membarrier sync core.
>> 
>> Clarification to your statement:
>> 
>> Return from interrupt to kernel code does not need to be context serializing
>> as long as kernel serializes before returning to user-space.
>> 
>> However, return from interrupt to user-space needs to be context serializing.
> 
> Hmm, I'm not sure it's enough even with the sync in the exit_lazy_tlb
> in the right places.
> 
> A kernel thread does a use_mm, then it blocks and the user process with
> the same mm runs on that CPU, and then it calls into the kernel, blocks,
> the kernel thread runs again, another CPU issues a membarrier which does
> not IPI this one because it's running a kthread, and then the kthread
> switches back to the user process (still without having unused the mm),
> and then the user process returns from syscall without having done a 
> core synchronising instruction.
> 
> The cause of the problem is you want to avoid IPI'ing kthreads. Why?
> I'm guessing it really only matters as an optimisation in case of idle
> threads. Idle thread is easy (well, easier) because it won't use_mm, so 
> you could check for rq->curr == rq->idle in your loop (in a suitable 
> sched accessor function).
> 
> But... I'm not really liking this subtlety in the scheduler for all this 
> (the scheduler still needs the barriers when switching out of idle).
> 
> Can it be improved somehow? Let me forget x86 core sync problem for now
> (that _may_ be a bit harder), and step back and look at what we're doing.
> The memory barrier case would actually suffer from the same problem as
> core sync, because in the same situation it has no implicit mmdrop in
> the scheduler switch code either.
> 
> So what are we doing with membarrier? We want any activity caused by the 
> set of CPUs/threads specified that can be observed by this thread before 
> calling membarrier is appropriately fenced from activity that can be 
> observed to happen after the call returns.
> 
> CPU0                     CPU1
>                         1. user stuff
> a. membarrier()          2. enter kernel
> b. read rq->curr         3. rq->curr switched to kthread
> c. is kthread, skip IPI  4. switch_to kthread
> d. return to user        5. rq->curr switched to user thread
>                 6. switch_to user thread
>                 7. exit kernel
>                         8. more user stuff
> 
> As far as I can see, the problem is CPU1 might reorder step 5 and step
> 8, so you have mmdrop of lazy mm be a mb after step 6.
> 
> But why? The membarrier call only cares that there is a full barrier
> between 1 and 8, right? Which it will get from the previous context
> switch to the kthread.
> 
> I must say the memory barrier comments in membarrier could be improved
> a bit (unless I'm missing where the main comment is). It's fine to know
> what barriers pair with one another, but we need to know which exact
> memory accesses it is ordering
> 
>       /*
>         * Matches memory barriers around rq->curr modification in
>         * scheduler.
>         */
> 
> Sure, but it doesn't say what else is being ordered. I think it's just
> the user memory accesses, but would be nice to make that a bit more
> explicit. If we had such comments then we might know this case is safe.
> 
> I think the funny powerpc barrier is a similar case of this. If we
> ever see remote_rq->curr->flags & PF_KTHREAD, then we _know_ that
> CPU has or will have issued a memory barrier between running user
> code.
> 
> So AFAIKS all this membarrier stuff in kernel/sched/core.c could
> just go away. Except x86 because thread switch doesn't imply core
> sync, so CPU1 between 1 and 8 may never issue a core sync instruction
> the same way a context switch must be a full mb.
> 
> Before getting to x86 -- Am I right, or way off track here?

I find it hard to believe that this is x86 only. Why would thread switch imply core sync on any architecture?  Is x86 unique in having a stupid expensive core sync that is heavier than smp_mb()?

But I’m wondering if all this deferred sync stuff is wrong. In the brave new world of io_uring and such, perhaps kernel access matter too.  Heck, even:

int a[2];

Thread A:
a[0] = 1;
a[1] = 2:

Thread B:

write(fd, a, sizeof(a));

Doesn’t do what thread A is expecting.  Admittedly this particular example is nonsense, but maybe there are sensible cases that matter to someone.

—Andy

> 
> Thanks,
> Nick

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