linux-kernel - Re: [GIT PULL] Filesystem Information

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Message-ID: <CAJfpegvQdCr+u51_xkpbS7eMZyNqtnk_tdK1KVhsiCuiFWWJJw@mail.gmail.com>
Date:   Wed, 5 Aug 2020 10:00:46 +0200
From:   Miklos Szeredi <miklos@...redi.hu>
To:     Ian Kent <raven@...maw.net>
Cc:     David Howells <dhowells@...hat.com>,
        Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
        Al Viro <viro@...iv.linux.org.uk>, Karel Zak <kzak@...hat.com>,
        Jeff Layton <jlayton@...hat.com>,
        Miklos Szeredi <mszeredi@...hat.com>,
        Nicolas Dichtel <nicolas.dichtel@...nd.com>,
        Christian Brauner <christian@...uner.io>,
        Lennart Poettering <lennart@...ttering.net>,
        Linux API <linux-api@...r.kernel.org>,
        linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org,
        LSM <linux-security-module@...r.kernel.org>,
        linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [GIT PULL] Filesystem Information

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:33 AM Ian Kent <raven@...maw.net> wrote:
>

> On Tue, 2020-08-04 at 16:36 +0200, Miklos Szeredi wrote:
> > And notice how similar the above interface is to getxattr(), or the
> > proposed readfile().  Where has the "everything is  a file"
> > philosophy
> > gone?
>
> Maybe, but that philosophy (in a roundabout way) is what's resulted
> in some of the problems we now have. Granted it's blind application
> of that philosophy rather than the philosophy itself but that is
> what happens.

Agree.   What people don't seem to realize, even though there are
blindingly obvious examples, that binary interfaces like the proposed
fsinfo(2) syscall can also result in a multitude of problems at the
same time as solving some others.

There's no magic solution in API design,  it's not balck and white.
We just need to strive for a good enough solution.  The problem seems
to be that trying to discuss the merits of other approaches seems to
hit a brick wall.  We just see repeated pull requests from David,
without any real discussion of the proposed alternatives.

>
> I get that your comments are driven by the way that philosophy should
> be applied which is more of a "if it works best doing it that way then
> do it that way, and that's usually a file".
>
> In this case there is a logical division of various types of file
> system information and the underlying suggestion is maybe it's time
> to move away from the "everything is a file" hard and fast rule,
> and get rid of some of the problems that have resulted from it.
>
> The notifications is an example, yes, the delivery mechanism is
> a "file" but the design of the queueing mechanism makes a lot of
> sense for the throughput that's going to be needed as time marches
> on. Then there's different sub-systems each with unique information
> that needs to be deliverable some other way because delivering "all"
> the information via the notification would be just plain wrong so
> a multi-faceted information delivery mechanism makes the most
> sense to allow specific targeted retrieval of individual items of
> information.
>
> But that also supposes your at least open to the idea that "maybe
> not everything should be a file".

Sure.  I've learned pragmatism, although idealist at heart.  And I'm
not saying all API's from David are shit.  statx(2) is doing fine.
It's a simple binary interface that does its job well.   Compare the
header files for statx and fsinfo, though, and maybe you'll see what
I'm getting at...

Thanks,
Miklos