Message-ID: <20200906171413.GA8305@wind.enjellic.com>
Date:   Sun, 6 Sep 2020 12:14:13 -0500
From:   "Dr. Greg" <greg@...ellic.com>
To:     Mimi Zohar <zohar@...ux.ibm.com>
Cc:     Christian Brauner <christian.brauner@...ntu.com>,
        krzysztof.struczynski@...wei.com, linux-integrity@...r.kernel.org,
        linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
        containers@...ts.linux-foundation.org,
        linux-security-module@...r.kernel.org, stefanb@...ux.vnet.ibm.com,
        sunyuqiong1988@...il.com, mkayaalp@...binghamton.edu,
        dmitry.kasatkin@...il.com, serge@...lyn.com, jmorris@...ei.org,
        christian@...uner.io, silviu.vlasceanu@...wei.com,
        roberto.sassu@...wei.com, ebiederm@...ssion.com,
        viro@...iv.linux.org.uk, torvalds@...ux-foundation.org,
        luto@...capital.net, jannh@...gle.com, nick.dusek@...il.com
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 00/30] ima: Introduce IMA namespace

On Wed, Sep 02, 2020 at 03:54:58PM -0400, Mimi Zohar wrote:

Good morning, I hope the weekend is going well for everyone.

A follow on to my previous e-mail regarding what 'namespaced IMA'
should look like.

> On Tue, 2020-08-18 at 18:49 +0200, Christian Brauner wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 05:20:07PM +0200, krzysztof.struczynski@...wei.com wrote:
> > > From: Krzysztof Struczynski <krzysztof.struczynski@...wei.com>
> > > IMA has not been designed to work with containers. It handles
> > > every process in the same way, and it cannot distinguish if a
> > > process belongs to a container or not.
> > >
> > > Containers use namespaces to make it appear to the processes in
> > > the containers that they have their own isolated instance of the
> > > global resource. For IMA as well, it is desirable to let
> > > processes in the

> > IMA is brought up on a regular basis with "we want to have this" for
> > years and then non-one seems to really care enough.

I don't think it is a matter of lack of interest or not caring.  The
challenge becomes whether or not a business case exists for expending
the resources and navigating the challenges needed to advance
infrastructure for inclusion in the kernel.

> There is a lot of interest in IMA namespacing, but the question
> always comes back to how to enable it.  Refer to
> https://kernsec.org/wiki/index.php/IMA_Namespacing_design_considerations
> for Stefan's analysis.

As I noted in my previous e-mail, I believe the path forward is not to
figure out how to address the rather complex and invasive issue of how
to namespace IMA, but instead, needs to be what a flexible
'next-generation' architecture for platform behavioral assessment
looks like.

In a larger context, I believe the future for security is going to
involve at a minimum the kernel, and more likely, something tightly
coupled to the kernel, making active decisions on whether or not a
behavior that the kernel is contemplating mediating is consistent with
platform or container security policy.

To frame this a bit, the well understood role of the kernel with
respect to security is to mediate 'Turing Events', or Actor/Subject
(A/S) interactions.  Both DAC and MAC are based on this concept with
the interface between an Actor and Subject being a security 'gate'.

Given this model, the most simplistic and direct path forward is to
provide a namespace capable method of exporting a description of the
identity parameters that characterize the entities involved in an A/S
interaction.  The kernel, or as I previously suggested as more likely
moving forward, a closely linked entity can then make a decision as to
whether or not the behavior should be allowed.

FWIW, as an example of the minimal impact of this method, here is the
diffstat of such an implementation:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 arch/x86/entry/syscalls/syscall_32.tbl    |    2 +
 arch/x86/entry/syscalls/syscall_64.tbl    |    2 +
 fs/proc/array.c                           |    7 +
 fs/proc/namespaces.c                      |    4 +
 include/linux/ima.h                       |   27 +
 include/linux/nsproxy.h                   |    2 +
 include/linux/proc_ns.h                   |    2 +
 include/linux/sched.h                     |    3 +
 include/linux/syscalls.h                  |    6 +
 include/uapi/asm-generic/unistd.h         |    7 +-
 include/uapi/linux/sched.h                |    1 +
 kernel/fork.c                             |    5 +-
 kernel/nsproxy.c                          |   18 +-
 kernel/sys_ni.c                           |    4 +
 security/Kconfig                          |    1 +
 security/Makefile                         |    2 +
 Security/ai/Kconfig                       |   12 +
 security/ai/Makefile                      |    3 +
 security/ai/ai.c                          |  137 ++
 security/integrity/iint.c                 |    5 +
 security/integrity/ima/Makefile           |    2 +-
 security/integrity/ima/ima.h              |   17 +
 security/integrity/ima/ima_api.c          |   37 +-
 security/integrity/ima/ima_fs.c           |   10 +
 security/integrity/ima/ima_identity.c     | 2204 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 security/integrity/ima/ima_init.c         |    6 +-
 security/integrity/ima/ima_main.c         |    7 +
 security/integrity/ima/ima_policy.c       |   74 +-
 security/integrity/ima/ima_queue.c        |   10 +-
 security/integrity/ima/ima_template.c     |    6 +
 security/integrity/ima/ima_template_lib.c |   71 +
 security/integrity/ima/ima_template_lib.h |   10 +
 security/integrity/integrity.h            |    4 +-
 security/security.c                       |    1 +
 34 files changed, 2684 insertions(+), 25 deletions(-)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

As can be seen, this was built out in the context of the IMA
sub-system with the majority of the changes being encapsulated in one
file.  This includes all of the infrastructure needed for a Trusted
Execution Environment (TEE) to enforce kernel security policy
decisions.

In addition to a container specific representation of the current
behavioral state, each namespace exports via a sysfs pseudo-file, the
following behavioral definition for each A/S interaction.

exchange pid{1} event{cboot:/home/greg/runc} actor{uid=0, euid=0, suid=0, gid=0, egid=0, sgid=0, fsuid=0, fsgid=0, cap=0x3fffffffff} subject{uid=50, gid=50, mode=0100755, name_length=15, name=f0da604ff3f0a3e16163bc9d2f99bb9bcd70397d211b746d0104299972cc5505, s_id=sda1, s_uuid=1bfef8aaa45f4bcaa846640ae4547ddc, digest=791a7cf8dec2afe302836b974b3c0f7b0a5983f76d857aa97658ce09d54f60f8}

Which provides the framework for implementing any number of policy
decisions, of which integrity is only one element.

We had initially used SGX to implement a TEE based enforcement engine,
but given the direction of hardware support, we have largely shelved
our SGX development efforts in favor of using a micro-controller based
approach.

Given what appears to be the direction for mobile devices, a
collection of specialized harware linked by an OS, the notion of a
separate entity making security policy decisions seems relevant.

> I understand "containers" is not a kernel construct, but from my very
> limited perspective, IMA namespacing only makes sense in the context of
> a "container".  The container owner may want to know which files have
> been accessed/executed (measurements, remote attestation) and/or
> constrain which files may be accessed/executed based on signatures
> (appraisal).

Trying to implement supportable and field maintainable 'trusted
computing' is a fools errand without the notion of containerization of
platform behavior.  This is true whether the target is the cloud or
endpoint/IOT class devices.

It seems well understood, that while containers are not a first class
kernel entity, the kernel takes responsibility for implementing
compartmentalization of resources.  It would seem that security event
characterizations are consistent with that model.

In addition, none of this works without developer support.  Framing
behavior assessment in the form of containers means that behavioral
trajectory definitions for the containers can be a byproduct of
standard DEVOP's pipelines.

> > I'm highly skeptical of the value of ~2500 lines of code even if
> > it includes a bunch of namespace boilerplate. It's yet another
> > namespace, and yet another security framework.  Why does IMA need
> > to be a separate namespace? Keyrings are tied to user namespaces
> > why can't IMA be?

> In the context of a container, the measurement list and IMA/EVM
> keyrings need to be setup before the first file is measured,
> signature verified, or file hash included in the audit log.

As I've noted previously, namespacing IMA is problematic, what is
needed is something far simpler and more flexible that provides a
framework for implementing policy outside of the kernel, or if in the
kernel, in a highly customizable fashion.

I think that it would be found that user namespaces bring too much
baggage to the table.  The most effective path forward in this venue
would seem to be to bring forward the most simplistic, flexiable and
uncomplicated mechanism possible.

In this model, classic IMA would serve as a trust root on whose
shoulders a security orchestration framework stands.

> > I believe Eric has even pointed that out before.
> >
> > Eric, thoughts?

> Any help with the above scenario would very be much appreciated.

Hopefully the conversation will benefit from actual field experience
with doing this sort of thing in a supportable fashion.

The concept of 'trusted computing' has been around since the days when
Dave Grawrock designed TXT, which is heavily linked to the heritage of
IMA.  The fact that effective solutions in widespread practice have
not emerged, in the face of demonstrated need, suggests the need to
develop new solution strategies.

Just to be clear, we are not campaigning or advocating what we have
done but are simply providing background for discussion.  We haven't
campaigned this approach given how complex the kernel development has
become, particurlarly with respect to security infrastructure.

Candidly, given the politics of security technology being viewed as
'constraining' user rights, I think that a lot of forthcoming security
technology may end up being out of tree moving forward.

> Mimi

Best wishes for a productive week to everyone.

Dr. Greg

As always,
Dr. Greg Wettstein, Ph.D, Worker      Autonomously self-defensive
Enjellic Systems Development, LLC     IOT platforms and edge devices.
4206 N. 19th Ave.
Fargo, ND  58102
PH: 701-281-1686                      EMAIL: dg@...ellic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A large number of the world's technical challenges have been solved.
 The far greater challenge lies in conveying an understanding of this
 to the world."
                                -- Dr. Greg Wettstein
                                   Resurrection

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