Message-ID: <87wnzsmvyx.fsf@x220.int.ebiederm.org>
Date:   Wed, 14 Oct 2020 14:46:46 -0500
From:   ebiederm@...ssion.com (Eric W. Biederman)
To:     "Serge E. Hallyn" <serge@...lyn.com>
Cc:     Andy Lutomirski <luto@...nel.org>,
        Josh Triplett <josh@...htriplett.org>,
        Christian Brauner <christian.brauner@...ntu.com>,
        Linux Containers <containers@...ts.linux-foundation.org>,
        Alexander Mihalicyn <alexander@...alicyn.com>,
        Mrunal Patel <mpatel@...hat.com>, Wat Lim <watl@...gle.com>,
        Aleksa Sarai <cyphar@...har.com>,
        Pavel Tikhomirov <ptikhomirov@...tuozzo.com>,
        Geoffrey Thomas <geofft@...reload.com>,
        Joseph Christopher Sible <jcsible@...t.org>,
        Mickaël Salaün 
        <mic@...ikod.net>, Vivek Goyal <vgoyal@...hat.com>,
        Giuseppe Scrivano <gscrivan@...hat.com>,
        Stephane Graber <stgraber@...ntu.com>,
        Kees Cook <keescook@...omium.org>,
        Sargun Dhillon <sargun@...gun.me>,
        LKML <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: LPC 2020 Hackroom Session: summary and next steps for isolated user namespaces

"Serge E. Hallyn" <serge@...lyn.com> writes:

> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 12:01:09AM -0500, Eric W. Biederman wrote:
>> Andy Lutomirski <luto@...nel.org> writes:
>> 
>> > On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 1:53 PM Josh Triplett <josh@...htriplett.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Oct 09, 2020 at 11:26:06PM -0500, Serge E. Hallyn wrote:
>> >> > > 3. Find a way to allow setgroups() in a user namespace while keeping
>> >> > >    in mind the case of groups used for negative access control.
>> >> > >    This was suggested by Josh Triplett and Geoffrey Thomas. Their idea was to
>> >> > >    investigate adding a prctl() to allow setgroups() to be called in a user
>> >> > >    namespace at the cost of restricting paths to the most restrictive
>> >> > >    permission. So if something is 0707 it needs to be treated as if it's 0000
>> >> > >    even though the caller is not in its owning group which is used for negative
>> >> > >    access control (how these new semantics will interact with ACLs will also
>> >> > >    need to be looked into).
>> >> >
>> >> > I should probably think this through more, but for this problem, would it
>> >> > not suffice to add a new prevgroups grouplist to the struct cred, maybe
>> >> > struct group_info *locked_groups, and every time an unprivileged task creates
>> >> > a new user namespace, add all its current groups to this list?
>> >>
>> >> So, effectively, you would be allowed to drop permissions, but
>> >> locked_groups would still be checked for restrictions?
>> >>
>> >> That seems like it'd introduce a new level of complexity (a new facet of
>> >> permission) to manage. Not opposed, but it does seem more complex than
>> >> just opting out of using groups for negative permissions.
>
> Yeah, it would, but I basically hoped that we could catch most of this at
> e.g. generic_permission(), and/or we could introduce a helper which
> automatically adds a check for permission denied from locked_groups, so
> it shouldn't be too wide-spread.  If it does end up showing up all over
> the place, then that's a good reason not to do this.
>
>> > Is there any context other than regular UNIX DAC in which groups can
>> > act as negative permissions or is this literally just an issue for
>> > files with a more restrictive group mode than other mode?
>> 
>> Just that.
>> 
>> The ideas kicked around in the conversation were some variant of having
>> a sysctl that says "This system never uses groups for negative
>> permissions".
>> 
>> It was also suggested that if the sysctl was set the the permission
>> checks would be altered such that even if someone tried to set a
>> negative permission, the more liberal permissions of other would be used
>> instead.
>
> So then this would touch all the same code points which the
> locked_groups approach would have to touch?

No locked_groups would touch in_group_p and set_groups.  Especially what
set_groups means in that context.  It would have to handle what happens
when you start accumulating locked groups (because of multiple
namespaces).  How you dedup locked groups etc.

I was not able to convince myself that not being able to clear out
groups that a user has when they create a user namespace won't cause
other problems.  Especially as user namespaces had been in use for a
while at that point.

Not supporting negative groups would touch acl_permission and modify it
like:

 static int acl_permission_check(struct inode *inode, int mask)
 {
[irrelveant code snipped]
 	/* Only RWX matters for group/other mode bits */
 	mask &= 7;
 
 	/*
 	 * Are the group permissions different from
 	 * the other permissions in the bits we care
 	 * about? Need to check group ownership if so.
 	 */
 	if (mask & (mode ^ (mode >> 3))) {
-		if (in_group_p(inode->i_gid))
+		if (in_group_p(inode->i_gid) &&
+		    (!sysctl_force_positive_groups ||
+		    (mask & ~(mode >> 3)))
 			mode >>= 3;
 	}
 
 	/* Bits in 'mode' clear that we require? */
 	return (mask & ~mode) ? -EACCES : 0;
 }


I don't know that we need to do that.  But it would might be a good way
of flushing out the issues.


>> Given that creating /etc/subgid is effectively opting out of negative
>> permissions already have a sysctl that says that upfront feels like a
>> very clean solution.
>> 
>> Eric
>
> That feels like a cop-out to me.  If some young admin at Roxxon Corp decides
> she needs to run a container, so installs subuid package and sets that sysctl,
> how does she know whether or not some previous admin, who has since retired and
> did not keep good docs, set things up so that a negative acl is keeping nginx
> from reading some supersecret doc?
>
> Now personally I'm not a great believer in the negative acls so I think the
> above is a very unlikely scenario, but if we're going to worry about it, then
> we should worry about it :)

There is a different between guaranting we don't break existing setups
when a new feature is enabled, and supporting old very rare setups when
a new feature is enabled.


> "Click this button if noone has ever used feature X on this server"

My current thinking is that if we already don't honor negative groups
when /etc/subgid exists it would not hurt to make that more explicit.


>From what we could tell at the time people that know negative groups are
honored much less systems that actually use negative groups are
exceedingly rare.

Eric

Powered by blists - more mailing lists