Message-ID: <1247061646.32339.1603219677094.JavaMail.zimbra@efficios.com>
Date:   Tue, 20 Oct 2020 14:47:57 -0400 (EDT)
From:   Mathieu Desnoyers <mathieu.desnoyers@...icios.com>
To:     Florian Weimer <fweimer@...hat.com>
Cc:     Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
        linux-kernel <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,
        paulmck <paulmck@...nel.org>, Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@...il.com>,
        "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@...or.com>, Paul Turner <pjt@...gle.com>,
        linux-api <linux-api@...r.kernel.org>,
        Christian Brauner <christian.brauner@...ntu.com>,
        carlos <carlos@...hat.com>,
        Vincenzo Frascino <vincenzo.frascino@....com>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 1/2] rseq: Implement KTLS prototype for x86-64

----- On Sep 29, 2020, at 4:13 AM, Florian Weimer fweimer@...hat.com wrote:

> * Mathieu Desnoyers:
> 
>>> So we have a bootstrap issue here that needs to be solved, I think.
>>
>> The one thing I'm not sure about is whether the vDSO interface is indeed
>> superior to KTLS, or if it is just the model we are used to.
>>
>> AFAIU, the current use-cases for vDSO is that an application calls into
>> glibc, which then calls the vDSO function exposed by the kernel. I wonder
>> whether the vDSO indirection is really needed if we typically have a glibc
>> function used as indirection ? For an end user, what is the benefit of vDSO
>> over accessing KTLS data directly from glibc ?
> 
> I think the kernel can only reasonably maintain a single userspace data
> structure.  It's not reasonable to update several versions of the data
> structure in parallel.

I disagree with your statement. Considering that the kernel needs to keep
ABI compatibility for whatever it exposes to user-space, claiming that it
should never update several versions of data structures exposed to user-space
in parallel means that once a data structure is exposed to user-space as ABI
in a certain way, it can never ever change in the future, even if we find
a better way to do things.

It makes more sense to allow multiple data structures to be updated
in parallel until older ones become deprecated/unused/irrelevant, at
which point those can be configured out at build time and eventually
phased out after years of deprecation. Having the ability to update multiple
data structures in user-space with replicated information is IMHO necessary
to allow creation of new/better accelerated ABIs.

> 
> This means that glibc would have to support multiple kernel data
> structures, and users might lose userspace acceleration after a kernel
> update, until they update glibc as well.  The glibc update should be
> ABI-compatible, but someone would still have to backport it, apply it to
> container images, etc.

No. If the kernel ever exposes a data structure to user-space as ABI,
then it needs to stay there, and not break userspace. Hence the need to
duplicate information provided to user-space if need be, so we can move
on to better ABIs without breaking the old ones.

> 
> What's worse, the glibc code would be quite hard to test because we
> would have to keep around multiple kernel versions to exercise all the
> different data structure variants.
> 
> In contrast, the vDSO code always matches the userspace data structures,
> is always updated at the same time, and tested together.  That looks
> like a clear win to me.

For cases where the overhead of vDSO is not an issue, I agree that it
makes things tidier than directly accessing a data structure. The
documentation of the ABI becomes much simpler as well.

> 
>> If we decide that using KTLS from a vDSO function is indeed a requirement,
>> then, as you point out, the thread_pointer is available as ABI, but we miss
>> the KTLS offset.
>>
>> Some ideas on how we could solve this: we could either make the KTLS
>> offset part of the ABI (fixed offset), or save the offset near the
>> thread pointer at a location that would become ABI. It would have to
>> be already populated with something which can help detect the case
>> where a vDSO is called from a thread which does not populate KTLS
>> though. Is that even remotely doable ?
> 
> I don't know.
> 
> We could decide that these accelerated system calls must only be called
> with a valid TCB.  That's unavoidable if the vDSO sets errno directly,
> so it's perhaps not a big loss.  It's also backwards-compatible because
> existing TCB-less code won't know about those new vDSO entrypoints.
> Calling into glibc from a TCB-less thread has always been undefined.
> TCB-less code would have to make direct, non-vDSO system calls, as today.
> 
> For discovering the KTLS offset, a per-process page at a fixed offset
> from the vDSO code (i.e., what real shared objects already do for global
> data) could store this offset.  This way, we could entirely avoid an ABI
> dependency.

Or as Andy mentioned, we would simply pass the ktls offset as argument to
the vDSO ? It seems simple enough. Would it fit all our use-cases including
errno ?

> 
> We'll see what will break once we have the correct TID after vfork. 8->
> glibc currently supports malloc-after-vfork as an extension, and
> a lot of software depends on it (OpenJDK, for example).

I am not sure to see how that is related to ktls ?

> 
>>> With the latter, we could
>>> directly expose the vDSO implementation to applications, assuming that
>>> we agree that the vDSO will not fail with ENOSYS to request fallback to
>>> the system call, but will itself perform the system call.
>>
>> We should not forget the fields needed by rseq as well: the rseq_cs
>> pointer and the cpu_id fields need to be accessed directly from the
>> rseq critical section, without function call. Those use-cases require
>> that applications and library can know the KTLS offset and size and
>> use those fields directly.
> 
> Yes, but those offsets could be queried using a function from the vDSO
> (or using a glibc interface, to simplify linking).

Good point!

Thanks,

Mathieu


-- 
Mathieu Desnoyers
EfficiOS Inc.
http://www.efficios.com

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