Message-ID: <20210201102934.354ad5df@omen.home.shazbot.org>
Date:   Mon, 1 Feb 2021 10:29:34 -0700
From:   Alex Williamson <alex.williamson@...hat.com>
To:     Max Gurtovoy <mgurtovoy@...dia.com>
Cc:     Cornelia Huck <cohuck@...hat.com>,
        Jason Gunthorpe <jgg@...dia.com>, <kvm@...r.kernel.org>,
        <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>, <liranl@...dia.com>,
        <oren@...dia.com>, <tzahio@...dia.com>, <leonro@...dia.com>,
        <yarong@...dia.com>, <aviadye@...dia.com>, <shahafs@...dia.com>,
        <artemp@...dia.com>, <kwankhede@...dia.com>, <ACurrid@...dia.com>,
        <gmataev@...dia.com>, <cjia@...dia.com>,
        Matthew Rosato <mjrosato@...ux.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH RFC v1 0/3] Introduce vfio-pci-core subsystem

On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 11:40:45 +0200
Max Gurtovoy <mgurtovoy@...dia.com> wrote:

> On 2/1/2021 6:32 AM, Alex Williamson wrote:
> > On Sun, 31 Jan 2021 20:46:40 +0200
> > Max Gurtovoy <mgurtovoy@...dia.com> wrote:
> >  
> >> On 1/28/2021 11:02 PM, Alex Williamson wrote:  
> >>> On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:29:30 +0100
> >>> Cornelia Huck <cohuck@...hat.com> wrote:
> >>>     
> >>>> On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 15:27:43 +0200
> >>>> Max Gurtovoy <mgurtovoy@...dia.com> wrote:  
> >>>>> On 1/26/2021 5:34 AM, Alex Williamson wrote:  
> >>>>>> On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 20:45:22 -0400
> >>>>>> Jason Gunthorpe <jgg@...dia.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>          
> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 04:31:51PM -0700, Alex Williamson wrote:  
> >>>>>>>> extensions potentially break vendor drivers, etc.  We're only even hand
> >>>>>>>> waving that existing device specific support could be farmed out to new
> >>>>>>>> device specific drivers without even going to the effort to prove that.  
> >>>>>>> This is a RFC, not a complete patch series. The RFC is to get feedback
> >>>>>>> on the general design before everyone comits alot of resources and
> >>>>>>> positions get dug in.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Do you really think the existing device specific support would be a
> >>>>>>> problem to lift? It already looks pretty clean with the
> >>>>>>> vfio_pci_regops, looks easy enough to lift to the parent.
> >>>>>>>          
> >>>>>>>> So far the TODOs rather mask the dirty little secrets of the
> >>>>>>>> extension rather than showing how a vendor derived driver needs to
> >>>>>>>> root around in struct vfio_pci_device to do something useful, so
> >>>>>>>> probably porting actual device specific support rather than further
> >>>>>>>> hand waving would be more helpful.  
> >>>>>>> It would be helpful to get actual feedback on the high level design -
> >>>>>>> someting like this was already tried in May and didn't go anywhere -
> >>>>>>> are you surprised that we are reluctant to commit alot of resources
> >>>>>>> doing a complete job just to have it go nowhere again?  
> >>>>>> That's not really what I'm getting from your feedback, indicating
> >>>>>> vfio-pci is essentially done, the mlx stub driver should be enough to
> >>>>>> see the direction, and additional concerns can be handled with TODO
> >>>>>> comments.  Sorry if this is not construed as actual feedback, I think
> >>>>>> both Connie and I are making an effort to understand this and being
> >>>>>> hampered by lack of a clear api or a vendor driver that's anything more
> >>>>>> than vfio-pci plus an aux bus interface.  Thanks,  
> >>>>> I think I got the main idea and I'll try to summarize it:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The separation to vfio-pci.ko and vfio-pci-core.ko is acceptable, and we
> >>>>> do need it to be able to create vendor-vfio-pci.ko driver in the future
> >>>>> to include vendor special souse inside.  
> >>>> One other thing I'd like to bring up: What needs to be done in
> >>>> userspace? Does a userspace driver like QEMU need changes to actually
> >>>> exploit this? Does management software like libvirt need to be involved
> >>>> in decision making, or does it just need to provide the knobs to make
> >>>> the driver configurable?  
> >>> I'm still pretty nervous about the userspace aspect of this as well.
> >>> QEMU and other actual vfio drivers are probably the least affected,
> >>> at least for QEMU, it'll happily open any device that has a pointer to
> >>> an IOMMU group that's reflected as a vfio group device.  Tools like
> >>> libvirt, on the other hand, actually do driver binding and we need to
> >>> consider how they make driver decisions. Jason suggested that the
> >>> vfio-pci driver ought to be only spec compliant behavior, which sounds
> >>> like some deprecation process of splitting out the IGD, NVLink, zpci,
> >>> etc. features into sub-drivers and eventually removing that device
> >>> specific support from vfio-pci.  Would we expect libvirt to know, "this
> >>> is an 8086 graphics device, try to bind it to vfio-pci-igd" or "uname
> >>> -m says we're running on s390, try to bind it to vfio-zpci"?  Maybe we
> >>> expect derived drivers to only bind to devices they recognize, so
> >>> libvirt could blindly try a whole chain of drivers, ending in vfio-pci.
> >>> Obviously if we have competing drivers that support the same device in
> >>> different ways, that quickly falls apart.  
> >> I think we can leave common arch specific stuff, such as s390 (IIUC) in
> >> the core driver. And only create vfio_pci drivers for
> >> vendor/device/subvendor specific stuff.  
> > So on one hand you're telling us that the design principles here can be
> > applied to various other device/platform specific support, but on the
> > other you're saying, but don't do that...  
> 
> I guess I was looking at nvlink2 as device specific.

It's device specific w/ platform dependencies as I see it.

> But let's update the nvlink2, s390 and IGD a bit:
> 
> 1. s390 -  config VFIO_PCI_ZDEV rename to config VFIO_PCI_S390 (it will 
> include all needed tweeks for S390)
> 
> 2. nvlink2 - config VFIO_PCI_NVLINK2 rename to config VFIO_PCI_P9 (it 
> will include all needed tweeks for P9)
> 
> 3. igd - config VFIO_PCI_IGD rename to config VFIO_PCI_X86 (it will 
> include all needed tweeks for X86)
> 
> All the 3 stays in the vfio-pci-core.ko since we might need S390 stuff 
> if we plug Network adapter from vendor-A or  NVMe adapter from vendor-B 
> for example. This is platform specific and we don't want to duplicate it 
> in each vendor driver.
> 
> Same for P9 (and nvlink2 is only a special case in there) and X86.

I'm not a fan of this, you're essentially avoiding the issue by turning
everything into an architecture specific version of the driver.  That
takes us down a path where everything gets added to vfio-pci-core with
a bunch of Kconfig switches, which seems to be exactly the opposite
direction of creating a core module as a library for derived device
and/or platform specific modules.  This also appears to be the opposite
of Jason's suggestion that vfio-pci become a pure PCI spec module
without various device/vendor quirks.

> >> Also, the competing drivers issue can also happen today, right ? after
> >> adding new_id to vfio_pci I don't know how linux will behave if we'll
> >> plug new device with same id to the system. which driver will probe it ?  
> > new_id is non-deterministic, that's why we have driver_override.  
> 
> I'm not sure I understand how driver_override help in the competition ?
> 
> it's only enforce driver binding to a device.
> 
> if we have device AAA0 that is driven by aaa.ko and we add AAA as new_id 
> to vfio_pci and afterwards we plug AAA1 that is also driven by aaa.ko 
> and can be driven by vfio_pci.ko. what will happen ? will it be the 
> wanted behavior always ?

I think with AAA vs AAA0 and AAA1 you're suggesting a wildcard in
new_id where both the aaa.ko driver and vfio-pci.ko (once the wildcard
is added) could bind to the device.  At that point, which driver gets
first shot at a compatible device depends on the driver load order, ie.
if the aaa.ko module was loaded before vfio-pci.ko, it might win.  If
an event happens that causes the competing driver to be loaded between
setting a new_id and binding the device to the driver, that competing
module load could claim the device instead.  driver_override helps by
allowing the user to define that a device will match a driver rather
than a driver matching a device.  The user can write a driver name to
the driver_override of the device such that that device can only be
bound to the specified driver.

> We will have a competition in any case in the current linux design. Only 
> now we add new players to the competition.
> 
> how does libvirt use driver_override ?

Libvirt would write "vfio-pci" to the driver_override attribute for a
device such that when an unbind and drivers_probe occurs, that device
can only be bound to vfio-pci.  There is no longer a race with another
driver nor is there non-determinism based on module load order.
 
> and why will it change in case of vendor specific vfio-pci driver ?

Libvirt needs to know *what* driver to set as the vendor_override, so
if we had vfio-pci, vfio-pci-zdev, vfio-zpci-ism, vfio-pci-igd,
vfio-pci-ppc-nvlink, etc., how does libvirt decide which driver it
should use?  The drivers themselves cannot populate their match ids or
else we get into the problem above where for example vfio-pci-igd could
possibly claim the Intel graphics device before i915 depending on the
module load order, which would be a support issue.

> >> I don't really afraid of competing drivers since we can ask from vendor
> >> vfio pci_drivers to add vendor_id, device_id, subsystem_vendor and
> >> subsystem_device so we won't have this problem. I don't think that there
> >> will be 2 drivers that drive the same device with these 4 ids.
> >>
> >> Userspace tool can have a map of ids to drivers and bind the device to
> >> the right vfio-pci vendor driver if it has one. if not, bind to vfio_pci.ko.  
> > As I've outlined, the support is not really per device, there might be
> > a preferred default driver for the platform, ex. s390.
> >  
> >>> Libvirt could also expand its available driver models for the user to
> >>> specify a variant, I'd support that for overriding a choice that libvirt
> >>> might make otherwise, but forcing the user to know this information is
> >>> just passing the buck.  
> >> We can add a code to libvirt as mentioned above.  
> > That's rather the question here, what is that algorithm by which a
> > userspace tool such as libvirt would determine the optimal driver for a
> > device?  
> 
> If exist, the optimal driver is the vendor driver according to mapping 
> of device_id + vendor_id + subsystem_device + subsystem_vendor to 
> vendor-vfio-pci.ko.

And how is that mapping done?  The only sane way would be depmod, but
that implies that vendor-vfio-pci.ko fills the ids table for that
device, which can only happen for devices that have no competing host
driver.  For example, how would Intel go about creating their vendor
vfio-pci module that can bind to and xl710 VF that wouldn't create
competition and non-determinism in module loading vs the existing
iavf.ko module?  This only works with your aux bus based driver, but
that's also the only vfio-pci derived driver proposed that can take
advantage of that approach.

> If not, bind to vfio-pci.ko.
> 
> Platform specific stuff will be handled in vfio-pci-core.ko and not in a 
> vendor driver. vendor drivers are for PCI devices and not platform tweeks.

I don't think that's the correct, or a sustainable approach.  vfio-pci
will necessarily make use of platform access functions, but trying to
loop in devices that have platform dependencies as platform extensions
of vfio-pci-core rather than vendor extensions for a device seems wrong
to me.
 
> >>> Some derived drivers could probably actually include device IDs rather
> >>> than only relying on dynamic ids, but then we get into the problem that
> >>> we're competing with native host driver for a device.  The aux bus
> >>> example here is essentially the least troublesome variation since it
> >>> works in conjunction with the native host driver rather than replacing
> >>> it.  Thanks,  
> >> same competition after we add new_id to vfio_pci, right ?  
> > new_id is already superseded by driver_override to avoid the ambiguity,
> > but to which driver does a userspace tool like libvirt define as the
> > ultimate target driver for a device and how?  
> 
> it will have a lookup table as mentioned above.

So the expectation is that each user application that manages binding
devices to vfio-pci derived drivers will have a lookup table that's
manually managed to provide an optimal device to driver mapping?
That's terrible.  Thanks,

Alex

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