Message-ID: <8296cd-85d0-6b2e-3291-9a73db553ad8@telegraphics.com.au>
Date:   Fri, 12 Feb 2021 10:58:04 +1100 (AEDT)
From:   Finn Thain <fthain@...egraphics.com.au>
To:     "Song Bao Hua (Barry Song)" <song.bao.hua@...ilicon.com>
cc:     tanxiaofei <tanxiaofei@...wei.com>,
        "jejb@...ux.ibm.com" <jejb@...ux.ibm.com>,
        "martin.petersen@...cle.com" <martin.petersen@...cle.com>,
        "linux-scsi@...r.kernel.org" <linux-scsi@...r.kernel.org>,
        "linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        "linuxarm@...neuler.org" <linuxarm@...neuler.org>,
        "linux-m68k@...r.kernel.org" <linux-m68k@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: RE: [Linuxarm] Re: [PATCH for-next 00/32] spin lock usage optimization
 for SCSI drivers

On Thu, 11 Feb 2021, Song Bao Hua (Barry Song) wrote:

> > On Wed, 10 Feb 2021, Song Bao Hua (Barry Song) wrote:
> > 
> > > > On Wed, 10 Feb 2021, Song Bao Hua (Barry Song) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > TBH, that is why m68k is so confusing. irqs_disabled() on m68k 
> > > > > should just reflect the status of all interrupts have been 
> > > > > disabled except NMI.
> > > > >
> > > > > irqs_disabled() should be consistent with the calling of APIs 
> > > > > such as local_irq_disable, local_irq_save, spin_lock_irqsave 
> > > > > etc.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > When irqs_disabled() returns true, we cannot infer that 
> > > > arch_local_irq_disable() was called. But I have not yet found 
> > > > driver code or core kernel code attempting that inference.
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Isn't arch_irqs_disabled() a status reflection of irq 
> > > > > > > disable API?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why not?
> > > > >
> > > > > If so, arch_irqs_disabled() should mean all interrupts have been 
> > > > > masked except NMI as NMI is unmaskable.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Can you support that claim with a reference to core kernel code or 
> > > > documentation? (If some arch code agrees with you, that's neither 
> > > > here nor there.)
> > >
> > > I think those links I share you have supported this. Just you don't 
> > > believe :-)
> > >
> > 
> > Your links show that the distinction between fast and slow handlers 
> > was removed. Your links don't support your claim that 
> > "arch_irqs_disabled() should mean all interrupts have been masked". 
> > Where is the code that makes that inference? Where is the 
> > documentation that supports your claim?
> 
> (1)
> https://lwn.net/Articles/380931/
> Looking at all these worries, one might well wonder if a system which 
> *disabled interrupts for all handlers* would function well at all. So it 
> is interesting to note one thing: any system which has the lockdep 
> locking checker enabled has been running all handlers that way for some 
> years now. Many developers and testers run lockdep-enabled kernels, and 
> they are available for some of the more adventurous distributions 
> (Rawhide, for example) as well. So we have quite a bit of test coverage 
> for this mode of operation already.
> 

IIUC, your claim is that CONFIG_LOCKDEP involves code that contains the 
inference, "arch_irqs_disabled() means all interrupts have been masked".

Unfortunately, m68k lacks CONFIG_LOCKDEP support so I can't easily confirm 
this. I suppose there may be other architectures that support both LOCKDEP 
and nested interrupts (?)

Anyway, if you would point to the code that contains said inference, that 
would help a lot.

> (2)
> https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=b738a50a
> 
> "We run all handlers *with interrupts disabled* and expect them not to
> enable them. Warn when we catch one who does."
> 

Again, you don't see that warning because irqs_disabled() correctly 
returns true. You can confirm this fact in QEMU or Aranym if you are 
interested.

> (3) 
> https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=e58aa3d2d0cc
> genirq: Run irq handlers *with interrupts disabled*
> 
> Running interrupt handlers with interrupts enabled can cause stack 
> overflows. That has been observed with multiqueue NICs delivering all 
> their interrupts to a single core. We might band aid that somehow by 
> checking the interrupt stacks, but the real safe fix is to *run the irq 
> handlers with interrupts disabled*.
> 

Again, the stack overflow issue is not applicable. 68000 uses a priority 
mask, like ARM GIC. So there's no arbitrary nesting of interrupt handlers. 

In practice stack overflows simply don't occur on m68k. Please do try it.

> 
> All these documents say we are running irq handler with interrupts
> disabled. but it seems you think high-prio interrupts don't belong
> to "interrupts" in those documents :-)
> 
> that is why we can't get agreement. I think "interrupts" mean all except 
> NMI in these documents, but you insist high-prio IRQ is an exception.
> 

We can't get agreement because you seek to remove functionality without 
justification.

> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Are all interrupts (including NMI) masked whenever 
> > > > > > arch_irqs_disabled() returns true on your platforms?
> > > > >
> > > > > On my platform, once irqs_disabled() is true, all interrupts are 
> > > > > masked except NMI. NMI just ignore spin_lock_irqsave or 
> > > > > local_irq_disable.
> > > > >
> > > > > On ARM64, we also have high-priority interrupts, but they are
> > > > > running as PESUDO_NMI:
> > > > > https://lwn.net/Articles/755906/
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > A glance at the ARM GIC specification suggests that your hardware 
> > > > works much like 68000 hardware.
> > > >
> > > >    When enabled, a CPU interface takes the highest priority 
> > > >    pending interrupt for its connected processor and determines 
> > > >    whether the interrupt has sufficient priority for it to signal 
> > > >    the interrupt request to the processor. [...]
> > > >
> > > >    When the processor acknowledges the interrupt at the CPU 
> > > >    interface, the Distributor changes the status of the interrupt 
> > > >    from pending to either active, or active and pending. At this 
> > > >    point the CPU interface can signal another interrupt to the 
> > > >    processor, to preempt interrupts that are active on the 
> > > >    processor. If there is no pending interrupt with sufficient 
> > > >    priority for signaling to the processor, the interface 
> > > >    deasserts the interrupt request signal to the processor.
> > > >
> > > > https://developer.arm.com/documentation/ihi0048/b/
> > > >
> > > > Have you considered that Linux/arm might benefit if it could fully 
> > > > exploit hardware features already available, such as the interrupt 
> > > > priority masking feature in the GIC in existing arm systems?
> > >
> > > I guess no:-) there are only two levels: IRQ and NMI. Injecting a 
> > > high-prio IRQ level between them makes no sense.
> > >
> > > To me, arm64's design is quite clear and has no any confusion.
> > >
> > 
> > Are you saying that the ARM64 hardware design is confusing because it 
> > implements a priority mask, and that's why you had to simplify it with 
> > a pseudo-nmi scheme in software?
> 
> No, I was not saying this. I think both m68k and arm64 have good 
> hardware design. Just Linux's implementation is running irq-handlers 
> with interrupts disabled. So ARM64's pseudo-nmi is adapted to Linux 
> better.
> 

So, a platform should do what all the other platforms do because to 
deviate would be too dangerous?

> > > >
> > > > > On m68k, it seems you mean：
> > > > > irq_disabled() is true, but high-priority interrupts can still 
> > > > > come; local_irq_disable() can disable high-priority interrupts, 
> > > > > and at that time, irq_disabled() is also true.
> > > > >
> > > > > TBH, this is wrong and confusing on m68k.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Like you, I was surprised when I learned about it. But that 
> > > > doesn't mean it's wrong. The fact that it works should tell you 
> > > > something.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The fact is that m68k lets arch_irq_disabled() return true to 
> > > pretend all IRQs are disabled while high-priority IRQ is still open, 
> > > thus "pass" all sanitizing check in genirq and kernel core.
> > >
> > 
> > The fact is that m68k has arch_irq_disabled() return false when all 
> > IRQs are enabled. So there is no bug.
> 
> But it has arch_irq_disabled() return true while some interrupts(not 
> NMI) are still open.
> 
> > 
> > > > Things could always be made simpler. But discarding features isn't 
> > > > necessarily an improvement.
> > >
> > > This feature could be used by calling local_irq_enable_in_hardirq() 
> > > in those IRQ handlers who hope high-priority interrupts to preempt 
> > > it for a while.
> > >
> > 
> > So, if one handler is sensitive to interrupt latency, all other 
> > handlers should be modified? I don't think that's workable.
> 
> I think we just enable preempt_rt or force threaded_irq, and then 
> improve the priority of the irq thread who is sensitive to latency. No 
> need to touch all threads.
> 
> I also understand your point, we let one high-prio interrupt preempt low 
> priority interrupt, then we don't need to change the whole system. But I 
> think Linux prefers the method of threaded_irq or preempt_rt for this 
> kind of problems.
> 

So, some interrupt (or exception) processing happens atomically and the 
rest is deferred to a different execution context. (Not a new idea.)

If you introduce latency in the former context you can't win it back in 
the latter. Your solution fails because it adds latency to high priority 
handlers.

> > 
> > In anycase, what you're describing is a completely different nested 
> > interrupt scheme that would defeat the priority level mechanism that 
> > the hardware provides us with.
> 
> Yes. Indeed.
> 
> > 
> > > It shouldn't hide somewhere and make confusion.
> > >
> > 
> > The problem is hiding so well that no-one has found it! I say it 
> > doesn't exist.
> 
> Long long ago(before 2.6.38), we had a kernel supporting IRQF_DISABLED 
> and nested interrupts were widely supported, but system also ran well in 
> most cases. That means nested interrupts don't really matter in most 
> cases. That is why m68k is also running well even though it is still 
> nesting.
> 

No, m68k runs well because it uses priority masking. It is not because 
some cases are untested.

Your hardware may not have been around for 4 decades but it implements the 
same capability because the design is known to work.

> > 
> > > On the other hand, those who care about realtime should use threaded 
> > > IRQ and let IRQ threads preempt each other.
> > >
> > 
> > Yes. And those threads also have priority levels.
> 
> Finn, I am not a m68k guy, would you help check if this could activate a
> warning on m68k. maybe we can discuss this question in genirq maillist from
> this warning if you are happy. Thanks very much.
> 
> diff --git a/include/linux/hardirq.h b/include/linux/hardirq.h
> index 7c9d6a2d7e90..b8ca27555c76 100644
> --- a/include/linux/hardirq.h
> +++ b/include/linux/hardirq.h
> @@ -32,6 +32,7 @@ static __always_inline void rcu_irq_enter_check_tick(void)
>   */
>  #define __irq_enter()                                  \
>         do {                                            \
> +               WARN_ONCE(in_hardirq() && irqs_disabled(), "nested interrupts\n"); \
>                 preempt_count_add(HARDIRQ_OFFSET);      \
>                 lockdep_hardirq_enter();                \
>                 account_hardirq_enter(current);         \
> @@ -44,6 +45,7 @@ static __always_inline void rcu_irq_enter_check_tick(void)
>   */
>  #define __irq_enter_raw()                              \
>         do {                                            \
> +               WARN_ONCE(in_hardirq() && irqs_disabled(), "nested interrupts\n"); \
>                 preempt_count_add(HARDIRQ_OFFSET);      \
>                 lockdep_hardirq_enter();                \
>         } while (0)
> 

If you think that lockdep or some other code somewhere should be protected 
in this way, perhaps you can point to that code. Otherwise, your patch 
seems to lack any justification.

> Best Regards
> Barry
> 
> 

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