Message-ID: <CANBPYPi2b9tr6NAvZKTC138PgPY=WHcAJsRKf++ANiAQck8Www@mail.gmail.com>
Date:   Thu, 18 Mar 2021 10:10:57 -0700
From:   Li Li <dualli@...omium.org>
To:     Todd Kjos <tkjos@...gle.com>
Cc:     Jann Horn <jannh@...gle.com>,
        Christian Brauner <christian.brauner@...ntu.com>,
        Li Li <dualli@...gle.com>,
        Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>,
        Christian Brauner <christian@...uner.io>,
        Arve Hjønnevåg <arve@...roid.com>,
        "open list:ANDROID DRIVERS" <devel@...verdev.osuosl.org>,
        kernel list <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        Martijn Coenen <maco@...gle.com>,
        Hridya Valsaraju <hridya@...gle.com>,
        Suren Baghdasaryan <surenb@...gle.com>,
        "Joel Fernandes (Google)" <joel@...lfernandes.org>,
        kernel-team <kernel-team@...roid.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v3 0/3] Binder: Enable App Freezing Capability

On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 9:20 AM Todd Kjos <tkjos@...gle.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 1:17 PM Jann Horn <jannh@...gle.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 7:00 PM Christian Brauner
> > <christian.brauner@...ntu.com> wrote:
> > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 06:16:27PM -0700, Li Li wrote:
> > > > To improve the user experience when switching between recently used
> > > > applications, the background applications which are not currently needed
> > > > are cached in the memory. Normally, a well designed application will not
> > > > consume valuable CPU resources in the background. However, it's possible
> > > > some applications are not able or willing to behave as expected, wasting
> > > > energy even after being cached.
> > > >
> > > > It is a good idea to freeze those applications when they're only being
> > > > kept alive for the sake of faster startup and energy saving. These kernel
> > > > patches will provide the necessary infrastructure for user space framework
> > > > to freeze and thaw a cached process, check the current freezing status and
> > > > correctly deal with outstanding binder transactions to frozen processes.
> >
> > I just have some comments on the overall design:
> >
> > This seems a bit convoluted to me; and I'm not sure whether this is
> > really something the kernel should get involved in, or whether this
> > patchset is operating at the right layer.
>
> The issue is that there is lot's of per-process state in the binder
> driver that needs to be quiesced prior to freezing the process (using
> the standard freeze mechanism of
> Documentation/admin-guide/cgroup-v1/freezer-subsystem.rst). That's all
> this series does... quiesces binder state prior to freeze and then
> re-enable transactions when the process is thawed.
>
> >
> > If there are non-binder threads that are misbehaving, could you
> > instead stop all those threads in pure userspace code (e.g. by sending
> > a thread-directed signal to all of them and letting the signal handler
> > sleep on a futex); and if the binder thread receives a transaction
> > that should be handled, wake up those threads again?
>
> It is not an issue of stopping threads. It's an issue of quiescing
> binder for a process so clients aren't blocked waiting for a response
> from a frozen process that may never handle the transaction. This
> series causes the soon-to-be-frozen process to reject new transactions
> and allows user-space to detect when the transactions have drained
> from the queues prior to freezing the process.
>
> >
> > Or alternatively you could detect that the application is being woken
> > up frequently even though it's supposed to be idle (e.g. using
> > information from procfs), and kill it since you consider it to be
> > misbehaving?
> >
> > Or if there are specific usage patterns you see frequently that you
> > consider to be wasting CPU resources (e.g. setting an interval timer
> > that fires in short intervals), you could try to delay such timers.
> >
> >
> > With your current approach, you're baking the assumption that all IPC
> > goes through binder into the kernel API; things like passing a file
> > descriptor to a pipe through binder or using shared futexes are no
>
> No, we're dealing with an issue that is particular to binder IPC when
> freezing a process. I suspect that other IPC mechanisms do not have
> this issue -- and if any do for Android, then they would need
> equivalent pre-freeze/post-freeze mechanisms. So far in the testing of
> freezing in Android R, there haven't been issues with pipes or futexes
> that required this kind of explicit quiescing (at least none that I
> know of -- dualli@, please comment if there have been these kinds of
> issues).
Correct, currently there's no evidence the similar things should be applied
to other IPC mechanisms. But we'll keep an eye on this.

>
> > longer usable for cross-process communication without making more
> > kernel changes. I'm not sure whether that's a good idea. On top of
> > that, if you freeze a process while it is in the middle of some
> > operation, resources associated with the operation will probably stay
> > in use for quite some time; for example, if an app is in the middle of
> > downloading some data over HTTP, and you freeze it, this may cause the
> > TCP connection to remain active and consume resources for send/receive
> > buffers on both the device and the server.

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