Message-ID: <CAHAy0tRi2q+wG+yBttq0FYeK-5wUAoK_=ZCtWsfQf0m8oPc1-w@mail.gmail.com>
Date:   Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:09:38 -0500
From:   Nathaniel McCallum <nathaniel@...fian.com>
To:     Jarkko Sakkinen <jarkko@...nel.org>
Cc:     Reinette Chatre <reinette.chatre@...el.com>,
        Haitao Huang <haitao.huang@...ux.intel.com>,
        Andy Lutomirski <luto@...nel.org>, dave.hansen@...ux.intel.com,
        tglx@...utronix.de, bp@...en8.de, mingo@...hat.com,
        linux-sgx@...r.kernel.org, x86@...nel.org, seanjc@...gle.com,
        kai.huang@...el.com, cathy.zhang@...el.com, cedric.xing@...el.com,
        haitao.huang@...el.com, mark.shanahan@...el.com, hpa@...or.com,
        linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH 05/25] x86/sgx: Introduce runtime protection bits

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 6:56 PM Jarkko Sakkinen <jarkko@...nel.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 01:50:13AM +0200, Jarkko Sakkinen wrote:
> > On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 09:13:27AM -0800, Reinette Chatre wrote:
> > > Hi Jarkko,
> > >
> > > On 1/10/2022 5:53 PM, Jarkko Sakkinen wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 04:05:21PM -0600, Haitao Huang wrote:
> > > >> On Sat, 08 Jan 2022 10:22:30 -0600, Jarkko Sakkinen <jarkko@...nel.org>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> On Sat, Jan 08, 2022 at 05:51:46PM +0200, Jarkko Sakkinen wrote:
> > > >>>> On Sat, Jan 08, 2022 at 05:45:44PM +0200, Jarkko Sakkinen wrote:
> > > >>>>> On Fri, Jan 07, 2022 at 10:14:29AM -0600, Haitao Huang wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>> OK, so the question is: do we need both or would a
> > > >>>> mechanism just
> > > >>>>>>>> to extend
> > > >>>>>>>>> permissions be sufficient?
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> I do believe that we need both in order to support pages
> > > >>>> having only
> > > >>>>>>>> the permissions required to support their intended use
> > > >>>> during the
> > > >>>>>>>> time the
> > > >>>>>>>> particular access is required. While technically it is
> > > >>>> possible to grant
> > > >>>>>>>> pages all permissions they may need during their lifetime it
> > > >>>> is safer to
> > > >>>>>>>> remove permissions when no longer required.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> So if we imagine a run-time: how EMODPR would be useful, and
> > > >>>> how using it
> > > >>>>>>> would make things safer?
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> In scenarios of JIT compilers, once code is generated into RW pages,
> > > >>>>>> modifying both PTE and EPCM permissions to RX would be a good
> > > >>>> defensive
> > > >>>>>> measure. In that case, EMODPR is useful.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> What is the exact threat we are talking about?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> To add: it should be *significantly* critical thread, given that not
> > > >>>> supporting only EAUG would leave us only one complex call pattern with
> > > >>>> EACCEPT involvement.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I'd even go to suggest to leave EMODPR out of the patch set, and
> > > >>>> introduce
> > > >>>> it when there is PoC code for any of the existing run-time that
> > > >>>> demonstrates the demand for it. Right now this way too speculative.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Supporting EMODPE is IMHO by factors more critical.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> At least it does not protected against enclave code because an enclave
> > > >>> can
> > > >>> always choose not to EACCEPT any of the EMODPR requests. I'm not only
> > > >>> confused here about the actual threat but also the potential adversary
> > > >>> and
> > > >>> target.
> > > >>>
> > > >> I'm not sure I follow your thoughts here. The sequence should be for enclave
> > > >> to request  EMODPR in the first place through runtime to kernel, then to
> > > >> verify with EACCEPT that the OS indeed has done EMODPR.
> > > >> If enclave does not verify with EACCEPT, then its own code has
> > > >> vulnerability. But this does not justify OS not providing the mechanism to
> > > >> request EMODPR.
> > > >
> > > > The question is really simple: what is the threat scenario? In order to use
> > > > the word "vulnerability", you would need one.
> > > >
> > > > Given the complexity of the whole dance with EMODPR it is mandatory to have
> > > > one, in order to ack it to the mainline.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Which complexity related to EMODPR are you concerned about? In a later message
> > > you mention "This leaves only EAUG and EMODT requiring the EACCEPT handshake"
> > > so it seems that you are perhaps concerned about the flow involving EACCEPT?
> > > The OS does not require nor depend on EACCEPT being called as part of these flows
> > > so a faulty or misbehaving user space omitting an EACCEPT call would not impact
> > > these flows in the OS, but would of course impact the enclave.
> >
> > I'd say *any* complexity because I see no benefit of supporting it. E.g.
> > EMODPR/EACCEPT/EMODPE sequence I mentioned to Haitao concerns me. How is
> > EMODPR going to help with any sort of workload?
>
> I've even started think should we just always allow mmap()?

I suspect this may be the most ergonomic way forward. Instructions
like EAUG/EMODPR/etc are really irrelevant implementation details to
what the enclave wants, which is a memory mapping in the enclave. Why
make the enclave runner do multiple context switches just to change
the memory map of an enclave?

> The worst thing
> that can happen is that the enclave crashes. Does that matter all that
> much? I'm asking because access control is the main theme in SGX2 patch set
> that IMHO should be considered to the ground. It really "stress tests" that
> area. If we can settle on  that, then other things are just technical details
> that we can surely sort out.
>
> /Jarkko

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