Message-ID: <0dc429a8e8349f82df7e1f10971929b71e45a87f.camel@intel.com>
Date:   Fri, 22 Apr 2022 07:48:01 +0800
From:   "ying.huang@...el.com" <ying.huang@...el.com>
To:     Yang Shi <shy828301@...il.com>, Wei Xu <weixugc@...gle.com>
Cc:     Jagdish Gediya <jvgediya@...ux.ibm.com>,
        Linux MM <linux-mm@...ck.org>,
        Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
        "Aneesh Kumar K.V" <aneesh.kumar@...ux.ibm.com>,
        Baolin Wang <baolin.wang@...ux.alibaba.com>,
        Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@...ux.intel.com>,
        Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@...el.com>,
        Greg Thelen <gthelen@...gle.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 0/5] mm: demotion: Introduce new node state
 N_DEMOTION_TARGETS

On Thu, 2022-04-21 at 10:56 -0700, Yang Shi wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2022 at 10:41 PM Wei Xu <weixugc@...gle.com> wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed, Apr 20, 2022 at 8:12 PM Yang Shi <shy828301@...il.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 12:00 AM ying.huang@...el.com
> > > <ying.huang@...el.com> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > On Wed, 2022-04-13 at 14:52 +0530, Jagdish Gediya wrote:
> > > > > Current implementation to find the demotion targets works
> > > > > based on node state N_MEMORY, however some systems may have
> > > > > dram only memory numa node which are N_MEMORY but not the
> > > > > right choices as demotion targets.
> > > > > 
> > > > > This patch series introduces the new node state
> > > > > N_DEMOTION_TARGETS, which is used to distinguish the nodes which
> > > > > can be used as demotion targets, node_states[N_DEMOTION_TARGETS]
> > > > > is used to hold the list of nodes which can be used as demotion
> > > > > targets, support is also added to set the demotion target
> > > > > list from user space so that default behavior can be overridden.
> > > > 
> > > > It appears that your proposed user space interface cannot solve all
> > > > problems.  For example, for system as follows,
> > > > 
> > > > Node 0 & 2 are cpu + dram nodes and node 1 are slow memory node near
> > > > node 0,
> > > > 
> > > > available: 3 nodes (0-2)
> > > > node 0 cpus: 0 1
> > > > node 0 size: n MB
> > > > node 0 free: n MB
> > > > node 1 cpus:
> > > > node 1 size: n MB
> > > > node 1 free: n MB
> > > > node 2 cpus: 2 3
> > > > node 2 size: n MB
> > > > node 2 free: n MB
> > > > node distances:
> > > > node   0   1   2
> > > >   0:  10  40  20
> > > >   1:  40  10  80
> > > >   2:  20  80  10
> > > > 
> > > > Demotion order 1:
> > > > 
> > > > node    demotion_target
> > > >  0              1
> > > >  1              X
> > > >  2              X
> > > > 
> > > > Demotion order 2:
> > > > 
> > > > node    demotion_target
> > > >  0              1
> > > >  1              X
> > > >  2              1
> > > > 
> > > > The demotion order 1 is preferred if we want to reduce cross-socket
> > > > traffic.  While the demotion order 2 is preferred if we want to take
> > > > full advantage of the slow memory node.  We can take any choice as
> > > > automatic-generated order, while make the other choice possible via user
> > > > space overridden.
> > > > 
> > > > I don't know how to implement this via your proposed user space
> > > > interface.  How about the following user space interface?
> > > > 
> > > > 1. Add a file "demotion_order_override" in
> > > >         /sys/devices/system/node/
> > > > 
> > > > 2. When read, "1" is output if the demotion order of the system has been
> > > > overridden; "0" is output if not.
> > > > 
> > > > 3. When write "1", the demotion order of the system will become the
> > > > overridden mode.  When write "0", the demotion order of the system will
> > > > become the automatic mode and the demotion order will be re-generated.
> > > > 
> > > > 4. Add a file "demotion_targets" for each node in
> > > >         /sys/devices/system/node/nodeX/
> > > > 
> > > > 5. When read, the demotion targets of nodeX will be output.
> > > > 
> > > > 6. When write a node list to the file, the demotion targets of nodeX
> > > > will be set to the written nodes.  And the demotion order of the system
> > > > will become the overridden mode.
> > > 
> > > TBH I don't think having override demotion targets in userspace is
> > > quite useful in real life for now (it might become useful in the
> > > future, I can't tell). Imagine you manage hundred thousands of
> > > machines, which may come from different vendors, have different
> > > generations of hardware, have different versions of firmware, it would
> > > be a nightmare for the users to configure the demotion targets
> > > properly. So it would be great to have the kernel properly configure
> > > it *without* intervening from the users.
> > > 
> > > So we should pick up a proper default policy and stick with that
> > > policy unless it doesn't work well for the most workloads. I do
> > > understand it is hard to make everyone happy. My proposal is having
> > > every node in the fast tier has a demotion target (at least one) if
> > > the slow tier exists sounds like a reasonable default policy. I think
> > > this is also the current implementation.
> > > 
> > 
> > This is reasonable.  I agree that with a decent default policy, the
> > overriding of per-node demotion targets can be deferred.  The most
> > important problem here is that we should allow the configurations
> > where memory-only nodes are not used as demotion targets, which this
> > patch set has already addressed.
> 
> Yes, I agree. Fixing the bug and allowing override by userspace are
> totally two separate things.
> 

Yes.  I agree with the separating thing, although [1/5] doesn't fix the
bug, but improve the automatic order generation method.  So I think it's
better to separate this patchset into 2 patchsets.  [1/5] is for
improving the automatic order generation.  The [2-5/5] is for user space
overriding.

Best Regards,
Huang, Ying

> > 
> > > > 
> > > > To reduce the complexity, the demotion order of the system is either in
> > > > overridden mode or automatic mode.  When converting from the automatic
> > > > mode to the overridden mode, the existing demotion targets of all nodes
> > > > will be retained before being changed.  When converting from overridden
> > > > mode to automatic mode, the demotion order of the system will be re-
> > > > generated automatically.
> > > > 
> > > > In overridden mode, the demotion targets of the hot-added and hot-
> > > > removed node will be set to empty.  And the hot-removed node will be
> > > > removed from the demotion targets of any node.
> > > > 
> > > > This is an extention of the interface used in the following patch,
> > > > 
> > > > https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20191016221149.74AE222C@viggo.jf.intel.com/
> > > > 
> > > > What do you think about this?
> > > > 
> > > > > node state N_DEMOTION_TARGETS is also set from the dax kmem
> > > > > driver, certain type of memory which registers through dax kmem
> > > > > (e.g. HBM) may not be the right choices for demotion so in future
> > > > > they should be distinguished based on certain attributes and dax
> > > > > kmem driver should avoid setting them as N_DEMOTION_TARGETS,
> > > > > however current implementation also doesn't distinguish any
> > > > > such memory and it considers all N_MEMORY as demotion targets
> > > > > so this patch series doesn't modify the current behavior.
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Best Regards,
> > > > Huang, Ying
> > > > 
> > > > [snip]
> > > > 

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