Date:   Fri, 17 Jun 2022 11:41:32 +0100
From:   Jonathan Cameron <Jonathan.Cameron@...wei.com>
To:     Ying Huang <ying.huang@...el.com>
CC:     Johannes Weiner <hannes@...xchg.org>,
        Aneesh Kumar K V <aneesh.kumar@...ux.ibm.com>,
        <linux-mm@...ck.org>, <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
        Wei Xu <weixugc@...gle.com>, Greg Thelen <gthelen@...gle.com>,
        Yang Shi <shy828301@...il.com>,
        Davidlohr Bueso <dave@...olabs.net>,
        Tim C Chen <tim.c.chen@...el.com>,
        Brice Goglin <brice.goglin@...il.com>,
        Michal Hocko <mhocko@...nel.org>,
        "Linux Kernel Mailing List" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        Hesham Almatary <hesham.almatary@...wei.com>,
        Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@...el.com>,
        "Alistair Popple" <apopple@...dia.com>,
        Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@...el.com>,
        "Feng Tang" <feng.tang@...el.com>,
        Jagdish Gediya <jvgediya@...ux.ibm.com>,
        "Baolin Wang" <baolin.wang@...ux.alibaba.com>,
        David Rientjes <rientjes@...gle.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v5 1/9] mm/demotion: Add support for explicit memory
 tiers

On Thu, 16 Jun 2022 09:11:24 +0800
Ying Huang <ying.huang@...el.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 2022-06-14 at 14:56 -0400, Johannes Weiner wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 14, 2022 at 01:31:37PM +0530, Aneesh Kumar K V wrote:  
> > > On 6/13/22 9:20 PM, Johannes Weiner wrote:  
> > > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2022 at 07:53:03PM +0530, Aneesh Kumar K V wrote:  
> > > > > If the kernel still can't make the right decision, userspace could rearrange
> > > > > them in any order using rank values. Without something like rank, if
> > > > > userspace needs to fix things up,  it gets hard with device
> > > > > hotplugging. ie, the userspace policy could be that any new PMEM tier device
> > > > > that is hotplugged, park it with a very low-rank value and hence lowest in
> > > > > demotion order by default. (echo 10 >
> > > > > /sys/devices/system/memtier/memtier2/rank) . After that userspace could
> > > > > selectively move the new devices to the correct memory tier?  
> > > > 
> > > > I had touched on this in the other email.
> > > > 
> > > > This doesn't work if two drivers that should have separate policies
> > > > collide into the same tier - which is very likely with just 3 tiers.
> > > > So it seems to me the main usecase for having a rank tunable falls
> > > > apart rather quickly until tiers are spaced out more widely. And it
> > > > does so at the cost of an, IMO, tricky to understand interface.
> > > >   
> > > 
> > > Considering the kernel has a static map for these tiers, how can two drivers
> > > end up using the same tier? If a new driver is going to manage a memory
> > > device that is of different characteristics than the one managed by dax/kmem,
> > > we will end up adding 
> > > 
> > > #define MEMORY_TIER_NEW_DEVICE 4
> > > 
> > > The new driver will never use MEMORY_TIER_PMEM
> > > 
> > > What can happen is two devices that are managed by DAX/kmem that
> > > should be in two memory tiers get assigned the same memory tier
> > > because the dax/kmem driver added both the device to the same memory tier.
> > > 
> > > In the future we would avoid that by using more device properties like HMAT
> > > to create additional memory tiers with different rank values. ie, we would
> > > do in the dax/kmem create_tier_from_rank() .  
> > 
> > Yes, that's the type of collision I mean. Two GPUs, two CXL-attached
> > DRAMs of different speeds etc.
> > 
> > I also like Huang's idea of using latency characteristics instead of
> > abstract distances. Though I'm not quite sure how feasible this is in
> > the short term, and share some concerns that Jonathan raised. But I
> > think a wider possible range to begin with makes sense in any case.
> >   
> > > > In the other email I had suggested the ability to override not just
> > > > the per-device distance, but also the driver default for new devices
> > > > to handle the hotplug situation.
> > > >   
> > > 
> > > I understand that the driver override will be done via module parameters.
> > > How will we implement device override? For example in case of dax/kmem driver
> > > the device override will be per dax device? What interface will we use to set the override?
> > > 
> > > IIUC in the above proposal the dax/kmem will do
> > > 
> > > node_create_and_set_memory_tier(numa_node, get_device_tier_index(dev_dax));
> > > 
> > > get_device_tier_index(struct dev_dax *dev)
> > > {
> > >     return dax_kmem_tier_index; // module parameter
> > > }
> > > 
> > > Are you suggesting to add a dev_dax property to override the tier defaults?  
> > 
> > I was thinking a new struct memdevice and struct memtype(?). Every
> > driver implementing memory devices like this sets those up and
> > registers them with generic code and preset parameters. The generic
> > code creates sysfs directories and allows overriding the parameters.
> > 
> > struct memdevice {
> > 	struct device dev;
> > 	unsigned long distance;
> > 	struct list_head siblings;
> > 	/* nid? ... */
> > };
> > 
> > struct memtype {
> > 	struct device_type type;
> > 	unsigned long default_distance;
> > 	struct list_head devices;
> > };
> > 
> > That forms the (tweakable) tree describing physical properties.  
> 
> In general, I think memtype is a good idea.  I have suggested
> something similar before.  It can describe the characters of a
> specific type of memory (same memory media with different interface
> (e.g., CXL, or DIMM) will be different memory types).  And they can
> be used to provide overriding information.
I'm not sure you are suggesting interface as one element of distinguishing
types, or as the element - just in case it's as 'the element'.
Ignore the next bit if not ;)

Memory "interface" isn't going to be enough of a distinction.  If you want to have
a default distance it would need to be different for cases where the
same 'type' of RAM has very different characteristics. Applies everywhere
but given CXL 'defines' a lot of this - if we just have DRAM attached
via CXL:

1. 16-lane direct attached DRAM device.  (low latency - high bw)
2. 4x 16-lane direct attached DRAM interleaved (low latency - very high bw)
3. 4-lane direct attached DRAM device (low latency - low bandwidth)
4. 16-lane to single switch, 4x 4-lane devices interleaved (mid latency - high bw)
5. 4-lane to single switch, 4x 4-lane devices interleaved (mid latency, mid bw)
6. 4x 16-lane so 4 switch, each switch to 4 DRAM devices (mid latency, very high bw)
(7. 16 land directed attached nvram. (midish latency, high bw - perf wise might be
    similarish to 4).

It could be a lot more complex, but hopefully that conveys that 'type'
is next to useless to characterize things unless we have a very large number
of potential subtypes. If we were on current tiering proposal
we'd just have the CXL subsystem manage multiple tiers to cover what is
attached.

> 
> As for memdevice, I think that we already have "node" to represent
> them in sysfs.  Do we really need another one?  Is it sufficient to
> add some links to node in the appropriate directory?  For example,
> make memtype class device under the physical device (e.g. CXL device),
> and create links to node inside the memtype class device directory?
> 
> > From that, the kernel then generates the ordered list of tiers.  
> 
> As Jonathan Cameron pointed, we may need the memory tier ID to be
> stable if possible.  I know this isn't a easy task.  At least we can
> make the default memory tier (CPU local DRAM) ID stable (for example
> make it always 128)?  That provides an anchor for users to understand.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Huang, Ying
> 
> > > > This should be less policy than before. Driver default and per-device
> > > > distances (both overridable) combined with one tunable to set the
> > > > range of distances that get grouped into tiers.
> > > >   
> > > 
> > > Can you elaborate more on how distance value will be used? The device/device NUMA node can have
> > > different distance value from other NUMA nodes. How do we group them?
> > > for ex: earlier discussion did outline three different topologies. Can you
> > > ellaborate how we would end up grouping them using distance?
> > > 
> > > For ex: in the topology below node 2 is at distance 30 from Node0 and 40 from Nodes
> > > so how will we classify node 2?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Node 0 & 1 are DRAM nodes, node 2 & 3 are PMEM nodes.
> > > 
> > > 		  20
> > >   Node 0 (DRAM)  ----  Node 1 (DRAM)
> > >        |        \   /       |
> > >        | 30    40 X 40      | 30
> > >        |        /   \       |
> > >   Node 2 (PMEM)  ----  Node 3 (PMEM)
> > > 		  40
> > > 
> > > node distances:
> > > node   0    1    2    3
> > >    0  10   20   30   40
> > >    1  20   10   40   30
> > >    2  30   40   10   40
> > >    3  40   30   40   10  
> > 
> > I'm fairly confused by this example. Do all nodes have CPUs? Isn't
> > this just classic NUMA, where optimizing for locality makes the most
> > sense, rather than tiering?
> > 
> > Forget the interface for a second, I have no idea how tiering on such
> > a system would work. One CPU's lower tier can be another CPU's
> > toptier. There is no lowest rung from which to actually *reclaim*
> > pages. Would the CPUs just demote in circles?
> > 
> > And the coldest pages on one socket would get demoted into another
> > socket and displace what that socket considers hot local memory?
> > 
> > I feel like I missing something.
> > 
> > When we're talking about tiered memory, I'm thinking about CPUs
> > utilizing more than one memory node. If those other nodes have CPUs,
> > you can't reliably establish a singular tier order anymore and it
> > becomes classic NUMA, no?  
> 
> 

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