Message-ID: <YxynQmEL6e194Wuw@rowland.harvard.edu>
Date:   Sat, 10 Sep 2022 11:03:30 -0400
From:   Alan Stern <stern@...land.harvard.edu>
To:     Hernan Luis Ponce de Leon <hernanl.leon@...wei.com>
Cc:     Jonas Oberhauser <jonas.oberhauser@...wei.com>,
        Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@...il.com>,
        Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
        "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@...nel.org>,
        "parri.andrea@...il.com" <parri.andrea@...il.com>,
        "will@...nel.org" <will@...nel.org>,
        "npiggin@...il.com" <npiggin@...il.com>,
        "dhowells@...hat.com" <dhowells@...hat.com>,
        "j.alglave@....ac.uk" <j.alglave@....ac.uk>,
        "luc.maranget@...ia.fr" <luc.maranget@...ia.fr>,
        "akiyks@...il.com" <akiyks@...il.com>,
        "dlustig@...dia.com" <dlustig@...dia.com>,
        "joel@...lfernandes.org" <joel@...lfernandes.org>,
        "linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        "linux-arch@...r.kernel.org" <linux-arch@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: "Verifying and Optimizing Compact NUMA-Aware Locks on Weak
 Memory Models"

On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 12:11:36PM +0000, Hernan Luis Ponce de Leon wrote:
> 
> What they mean seems to be that a prop relation followed only by wmb 
> (not mb) doesn't enforce the order of some writes to the same 
> location, leading to the claimed hang in qspinlock (at least as far as 
> LKMM is concerned).

You were quoting Jonas here, right?  The email doesn't make this obvious 
because it doesn't have two levels of "> > " markings.

> What we mean is that wmb does not give the same propagation properties as mb.

In general, _no_ two distinct relations in the LKMM have the same 
propagation properties.  If wmb always behaved the same way as mb, we 
wouldn't use two separate words for them.

> The claim is based on these relations from the memory model
> 
> let strong-fence = mb | gp
> ...
> let cumul-fence = [Marked] ; (A-cumul(strong-fence | po-rel) | wmb |
> 	po-unlock-lock-po) ; [Marked]
> let prop = [Marked] ; (overwrite & ext)? ; cumul-fence* ;
> 	[Marked] ; rfe? ; [Marked]

Please be more specific.  What difference between mb and wmb are you 
concerned about?  Can you give a small litmus test that illustrates this 
difference?  Can you explain in more detail how this difference affects 
the qspinlock implementation?

> From an engineering perspective, I think the only issue is that cat 
> *currently* does not have any syntax for this,

Syntax for what?  The difference between wmb and mb?

>  nor does herd currently 
> implement the await model checking techniques proposed in those works 
> (c.f. Theorem 5.3. in the "making weak memory models fair" paper, 
> which says that for this kind of loop, iff the mo-maximal reads in 
> some graph are read in a loop iteration that does not exit the loop, 
> the loop can run forever). However GenMC and I believe also Dat3M and 
> recently also Nidhugg support such techniques. It may not even be too 
> much effort to implement something like this in herd if desired.

I believe that herd has no way to express the idea of a program running 
forever.  On the other hand, it's certainly true (in all of these 
models) than for any finite number N, there is a feasible execution in 
which a loop runs for more than N iterations before the termination 
condition eventually becomes true.

Alan

> The Dartagnan model checker uses the Theorem 5.3 from above to detect 
> liveness violations.
> 
> We did not try to come up with a litmus test about the behavior 
> because herd7 cannot reason about liveness.
> However, if anybody is interested, the violating execution is shown here
> 	https://github.com/huawei-drc/cna-verification/blob/master/verification-output/BUG1.png
> 
> Hernan

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