Message-ID: <d1814f32-c8a2-c65f-836d-6c84878c4650@linutronix.de>
Date:   Tue, 8 Nov 2022 18:39:22 +0100 (CET)
From:   Anna-Maria Behnsen <anna-maria@...utronix.de>
To:     Pavan Kondeti <quic_pkondeti@...cinc.com>
cc:     linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
        Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
        John Stultz <jstultz@...gle.com>,
        Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,
        Eric Dumazet <edumazet@...gle.com>,
        "Rafael J . Wysocki" <rafael.j.wysocki@...el.com>,
        Arjan van de Ven <arjan@...radead.org>,
        "Paul E . McKenney" <paulmck@...nel.org>,
        Frederic Weisbecker <fweisbec@...il.com>,
        Rik van Riel <riel@...riel.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v4 00/16] timer: Move from a push remote at enqueue to
 a pull at expiry model

On Tue, 8 Nov 2022, Pavan Kondeti wrote:

> Hi Anna-Maria,
> 
> On Tue, Nov 08, 2022 at 04:06:15PM +0100, Anna-Maria Behnsen wrote:
> > On Tue, 8 Nov 2022, Pavan Kondeti wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi Anna-Maria,
> > > 
> > > On Fri, Nov 04, 2022 at 03:57:21PM +0100, Anna-Maria Behnsen wrote:
> > > > Next Steps
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > 
> > > > Simple deferrable timers are no longer required as they can be converted to
> > > > global timers. If a CPU goes idle, a formerly deferrable timer will not
> > > > prevent the CPU to sleep as long as possible. Only the last migrator CPU
> > > > has to take care of them. Deferrable timers with timer pinned flags needs
> > > > to be expired on the specified CPU but must not prevent CPU from going
> > > > idle. They require their own timer base which is never taken into account
> > > > when calculating the next expiry time. This conversation and required
> > > > cleanup will be done in a follow up series.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Taking non-pinned deferrable timers case, they are queued on their own base
> > > and its expiry is not taken into account while programming the next timer
> > > event during idle.
> > 
> > If CPU is not the last CPU going idle, then yes.
> 
> What is special with last CPU that is going idle? Sorry, it is not clear where
> the deferrable timer expiry is taken into account while programming the next
> wakeup event?

The last CPU has to make sure the global timers are handled. At the moment
the deferrable timer expiry is not taken into account for next wakeup.

> forward_and_idle_timer_bases()->tmigr_cpu_deactivate() is only taking global
> timer expiry (deferrable timers are NOT queued on global base) and comparing
> against the local base expiry. This makes me think that we are not taking
> deferrable timers expiry into account, which is correct IMO.

The information "deferrable timers [...] can be converted to global timers"
is below the heading "Next Steps". It is _NOT_ part of this series, it will
be part of a follow up patch series.

The posted series only introduces the timer migration hierarchy and then
removes the heuristic on which CPU a timer will be enqueued. The only
change for deferrable timers after this series is: They are always enqueued
on the local CPU. The rest stays the same.

[...]

> > > When the deferrable timers will be queued on global base, once a CPU comes out
> > > of idle and serve the timers on global base, the deferrable timers also would
> > > be served. This is a welcoming change. We would see a truly deferrable global
> > > timer something we would be interested in. [1] has some background on this.
> > 
> > Serving the deferrable timers once a CPU comes out of idle is already the
> > case even without the timer migration hierarchy. See upstream version of
> > run_local_timers().
> 
> However upstream version does not wake a CPU just to serve a deferrable timer.
> But it seems if we consider a deferrable timer just as another global timer,
> sure it will not prevent the local CPU going idle but there would be one CPU
> (thus, the system) that pays the penalty.
>

Right.

> > > [1]
> > > https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/1430188744-24737-1-git-send-email-joonwoop@codeaurora.org/
> > 
> > As far as I understand the problem you are linking to correctly, you want
> > to have a real "unbound" solution for deferrable or delayed work. This is
> > what you get with the timer migration hierarchy and when enqueuing
> > deferrable timers into global timer base. Timers are executed on the
> > migrator CPU because this CPU is not idle - doesn't matter where they have
> > been queued before.
> > 
> > It might be possible, that a fomerly deferrable timer enforces the last CPU
> > going idle to come back out of idle. But the question is, how often does
> > this occur in contrast to a wakeup cause by a non deferrable timer?  If you
> > have a look at the timers in kernel you have 64 deferrable timers (this
> > number also contain the deferrable and pinned timers). There are 7 timers
> > with only TIMER_PINNED flag and some additional using the add_timer_on() to
> > be enqueued on a dedicated CPU. But in total we have more than 1000
> > timers. Sure - in the end, numbers hardly depends on the selected kernel
> > config...
> 
> I will give an example here. Lets say we have 4 CPUs in a system. There is a
> devfreq governor driver that configures a delayed work for every 20 msec.

s/delayed work/deferrable work ?

> #1 When the system is busy, this *deferrable* timer expires at the 20 msec
> boundary. However, when the system is idle (i.e no use case is running but
> system does not enter global suspend because of other reasons like display
> ON etc), we don't expect this deferrable timer to expire at every 20 msec. 
> 
> With your proposal, we endup seeing the system (last CPU that enters idle)
> coming out of idle for every 20 msec which is not desirable.

With my proposal for next steps only timers with pinned and deferrable flag
set would keep the old behavior.

> #2 Today, deferrable is local to CPU. Irrespective of the activity on the
> other CPUs, this deferrable timer does not expire as long as the local CPU
> is idle for whatever reason. That is definitly not the devfreq governor
> expectation. The intention is to save power when system is idle but serving
> the purpose when it is relatively busy.
> 
> > 
> > Side note: One big problem of deferrable timers disappear with this
> > approach. All deferrable timers _WILL_ expire. Even if CPU where they have
> > been enqueued does not come back out of idle. Only deferrable and pinned
> > timers will still have this problem.
> > 
> Yes, this is a welcoming change. Solves the #2 problem as mentioned above.

But this welcoming change is only accessible when enqueuing deferrable
timers into global base. But be aware, the problem sill exists for pinned
deferrable timers.

Thanks,

	Anna-Maria

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