Date:   Thu, 17 Nov 2022 13:29:19 -0800
From:   Eric Dumazet <edumazet@...gle.com>
To:     Joel Fernandes <joel@...lfernandes.org>
Cc:     paulmck@...nel.org, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
        Cong Wang <xiyou.wangcong@...il.com>,
        David Ahern <dsahern@...nel.org>,
        "David S. Miller" <davem@...emloft.net>,
        Hideaki YOSHIFUJI <yoshfuji@...ux-ipv6.org>,
        Jakub Kicinski <kuba@...nel.org>,
        Jamal Hadi Salim <jhs@...atatu.com>,
        Jiri Pirko <jiri@...nulli.us>, netdev@...r.kernel.org,
        Paolo Abeni <pabeni@...hat.com>, rcu@...r.kernel.org,
        rostedt@...dmis.org, fweisbec@...il.com, jiejiang@...gle.com,
        Thomas Glexiner <tglx@...utronix.de>
Subject: Re: [PATCH rcu/dev 3/3] net: Use call_rcu_flush() for dst_destroy_rcu

On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 1:16 PM Joel Fernandes <joel@...lfernandes.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 17, 2022, at 2:29 PM, Paul E. McKenney <paulmck@...nel.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 05:40:40PM +0000, Joel Fernandes wrote:
> >>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 5:38 PM Joel Fernandes <joel@...lfernandes.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 5:17 PM Eric Dumazet <edumazet@...gle.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 7:58 AM Joel Fernandes <joel@...lfernandes.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hello Eric,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 07:44:41PM -0800, Eric Dumazet wrote:
> >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 7:16 PM Joel Fernandes (Google)
> >>>>>> <joel@...lfernandes.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In a networking test on ChromeOS, we find that using the new CONFIG_RCU_LAZY
> >>>>>>> causes a networking test to fail in the teardown phase.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The failure happens during: ip netns del <name>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And ? What happens then next ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The test is doing the 'ip netns del <name>' and then polling for the
> >>>>> disappearance of a network interface name for upto 5 seconds. I believe it is
> >>>>> using netlink to get a table of interfaces. That polling is timing out.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Here is some more details from the test's owner (copy pasting from another
> >>>>> bug report):
> >>>>> In the cleanup, we remove the netns, and thus will cause the veth pair being
> >>>>> removed automatically, so we use a poll to check that if the veth in the root
> >>>>> netns still exists to know whether the cleanup is done.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Here is a public link to the code that is failing (its in golang):
> >>>>> https://source.chromium.org/chromiumos/chromiumos/codesearch/+/main:src/platform/tast-tests/src/chromiumos/tast/local/network/virtualnet/env/env.go;drc=6c2841d6cc3eadd23e07912ec331943ee33d7de8;l=161
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Here is a public link to the line of code in the actual test leading up to the above
> >>>>> path (this is the test that is run:
> >>>>> network.RoutingFallthrough.ipv4_only_primary) :
> >>>>> https://source.chromium.org/chromiumos/chromiumos/codesearch/+/main:src/platform/tast-tests/src/chromiumos/tast/local/bundles/cros/network/routing_fallthrough.go;drc=8fbf2c53960bc8917a6a01fda5405cad7c17201e;l=52
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> Using ftrace, I found the callbacks it was queuing which this series fixes. Use
> >>>>>>> call_rcu_flush() to revert to the old behavior. With that, the test passes.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What is this test about ? What barrier was used to make it not flaky ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I provided the links above, let me know if you have any questions.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Was it depending on some undocumented RCU behavior ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This is a new RCU feature posted here for significant power-savings on
> >>>>> battery-powered devices:
> >>>>> https://lore.kernel.org/rcu/20221017140726.GG5600@paulmck-ThinkPad-P17-Gen-1/T/#m7a54809b8903b41538850194d67eb34f203c752a
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There is also an LPC presentation about the same, I can dig the link if you
> >>>>> are interested.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Maybe adding a sysctl to force the flush would be better for functional tests ?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I would rather change the test(s), than adding call_rcu_flush(),
> >>>>>> adding merge conflicts to future backports.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am not too sure about that, I think a user might expect the network
> >>>>> interface to disappear from the networking tables quickly enough without
> >>>>> dealing with barriers or kernel iternals. However, I added the authors of the
> >>>>> test to this email in the hopes he can provide is point of views as well.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The general approach we are taking with this sort of thing is to use
> >>>>> call_rcu_flush() which is basically the same as call_rcu() for systems with
> >>>>> CALL_RCU_LAZY=n. You can see some examples of that in the patch series link
> >>>>> above. Just to note, CALL_RCU_LAZY depends on CONFIG_RCU_NOCB_CPU so its only
> >>>>> Android and ChromeOS that are using it. I am adding Jie to share any input,
> >>>>> he is from the networking team and knows this test well.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I do not know what is this RCU_LAZY thing, but IMO this should be opt-in
> >>>
> >>> You should read the links I sent you. We did already try opt-in,
> >>> Thomas Gleixner made a point at LPC that we should not add new APIs
> >>> for this purpose and confuse kernel developers.
> >>>
> >>>> For instance, only kfree_rcu() should use it.
> >>>
> >>> No. Most of the call_rcu() usages are for freeing memory, so the
> >>> consensus is we should apply this as opt out and fix issues along the
> >>> way. We already did a lot of research/diligence on seeing which users
> >>> need conversion.
> >>>
> >>>> We can not review hundreds of call_rcu() call sites and decide if
> >>>> adding arbitrary delays cou hurt .
> >>>
> >>> That work has already been done as much as possible, please read the
> >>> links I sent.
> >>
> >> Also just to add, this test is a bit weird / corner case, as in anyone
> >> expecting a quick response from call_rcu() is broken by design.
> >> However, for these callbacks, it does not matter much which API they
> >> use as they are quite infrequent for power savings.
> >
> > The "broken by design" is a bit strong.  Some of those call_rcu()
> > invocations have been around for the better part of 20 years, after all.
> >
> > That aside, I do hope that we can arrive at something that will enhance
> > battery lifetime while avoiding unnecessary disruption.  But we are
> > unlikely to be able to completely avoid disruption.  As this email
> > thread illustrates.  ;-)
>
> Another approach, with these 3 patches could be to keep the call_rcu() but add an rcu_barrier() after them. I think people running ip del netns should not have to wait for their RCU cb to take too long to run and remove user visible state. But I would need suggestions from networking experts which CBs of these 3, to do this for. Or for all of them.
>
> Alternatively, we can also patch just the test with a new knob that does rcu_barrier. But I dislike that as it does not fix it for all users. Probably the ip utilities will also need a patch then.
>

Normally we have an rcu_barrier() in netns dismantle path already at a
strategic location ( in cleanup_net() )

Maybe the issue here is that some particular layers need another one.
Or we need to release a blocking reference before the call_rcu().
Some call_rcu() usages might not be optimal in this respect.

We should not add an rcu_barrier() after a call_rcu(), we prefer
factoring these expensive operations.

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