Message-ID: <4d2c373d-fea7-ebed-c922-8478ad77b843@arm.com>
Date:   Tue, 22 Nov 2022 11:53:00 +0000
From:   James Clark <james.clark@....com>
To:     Jing Zhang <renyu.zj@...ux.alibaba.com>,
        nick Forrington <Nick.Forrington@....com>,
        Jumana MP <Jumana.MP@....com>,
        John Garry <john.g.garry@...cle.com>,
        Ian Rogers <irogers@...gle.com>
Cc:     Will Deacon <will@...nel.org>, Mike Leach <mike.leach@...aro.org>,
        Leo Yan <leo.yan@...aro.org>,
        Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
        Ingo Molnar <mingo@...hat.com>,
        Arnaldo Carvalho de Melo <acme@...nel.org>,
        Mark Rutland <mark.rutland@....com>,
        Alexander Shishkin <alexander.shishkin@...ux.intel.com>,
        Jiri Olsa <jolsa@...nel.org>,
        Namhyung Kim <namhyung@...nel.org>,
        Andrew Kilroy <andrew.kilroy@....com>,
        Shuai Xue <xueshuai@...ux.alibaba.com>,
        Zhuo Song <zhuo.song@...ux.alibaba.com>,
        linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org,
        linux-perf-users@...r.kernel.org, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH RFC 0/6] Add metrics for neoverse-n2



On 22/11/2022 07:11, Jing Zhang wrote:
> 
> 
> 在 2022/11/21 下午7:51, James Clark 写道:
>>
>>
>> On 16/11/2022 15:26, Jing Zhang wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> 在 2022/11/16 下午7:19, James Clark 写道:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 31/10/2022 11:11, Jing Zhang wrote:
>>>>> This series add six metricgroups for neoverse-n2, among which, the
>>>>> formula of topdown L1 is from the document:
>>>>> https://documentation-service.arm.com/static/60250c7395978b529036da86?token=
>>>>>
>>>>> Since neoverse-n2 does not yet support topdown L2, metricgroups such
>>>>> as Cache, TLB, Branch, InstructionsMix, and PEutilization are added to
>>>>> help further analysis of performance bottlenecks.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Jing,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for working on this, these metrics look ok to me in general,
>>>> although we're currently working on publishing standardised metrics
>>>> across all new cores as part of a new project in Arm. This will include
>>>> N2, and our ones are very similar (or almost identical) to yours,
>>>> barring slightly different group names, metric names, and differences in
>>>> things like outputting topdown metrics as percentages.
>>>>
>>>> We plan to publish our standard metrics some time in the next 2 months.
>>>> Would you consider holding off on merging this change so that we have
>>>> consistant group names and units going forward? Otherwise N2 would be> the odd one out. I will send you the metrics when they are ready, and we
>>>> will have a script to generate perf jsons from them, so you can review.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Do you mean that after you release the new standard metrics, I remake my
>>> patch referring to them, such as consistent group names and unit?
>>
>> Hi Jing,
>>
>> I was planning to submit the patch myself, but there will be a script to
>> generate perf json files, so no manual work would be needed. Although
>> this is complicated by the fact that we won't be publishing the fixed
>> TopdownL1 metrics that you have for the existing N2 silicon so there
>> would be a one time copy paste to fix that part.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> We also have a slightly different forumula for one of the top down
>>>> metrics which I think would be slightly more accurate. We don't have
>>>
>>>
>>> The v2 version of the patchset updated the formula of topdown L1.
>>> Link: https://lore.kernel.org/all/1668411720-3581-1-git-send-email-renyu.zj@linux.alibaba.com/
>>>
>>> The formula of the v2 version is more accurate than v1, and it has been
>>> verified in our test environment. Can you share your formula first and we
>>> can discuss it together? :)
>>
>> I was looking at v2 but replied to the root of the thread by mistake. I
>> also had it the wrong way round. So your version corrects for the errata
>> on the current version of N2 (as you mentioned in the commit message).
>> Our version would be if there is a future new silicon revision with that
>> fixed, but it does have an extra improvement by subtracting the branch
>> mispredicts.
>>
>> Perf doesn't currently match the jsons based on silicon revision, so
>> we'd have to add something in for that if a fixed silicon version is
>> released. But this is another problem for another time.
>>
> 
> Hi James,
> 
> Let's do what Ian said, and you can improve it later with the standard metrics,
> after the fixed silicon version is released.
> 

Ok that's fine by me. I do have one update about our publishing progress
to share. This is the (currently empty) repo that we will be holding our
metrics in: https://gitlab.arm.com/telemetry-solution/telemetry-solution

We'll also have the conversion script in there as well. So there has at
least been some progress and we're getting close. I will keep you
updated when it is populated.

> 
>> This is the frontend bound metric we have for future revisions:
>>
>> 	"100 * ( (STALL_SLOT_FRONTEND/(CPU_CYCLES * 5)) - ((BR_MIS_PRED *
>> 4)/CPU_CYCLES) )"
>>
>> Other changes are, for example, your 'wasted' metric, we have
>> 'bad_speculation', and without the
>> cycles subtraction:
>>
>> 	100 * ( ((1 - (OP_RETIRED/OP_SPEC)) * (1 - (STALL_SLOT/(CPU_CYCLES *
>> 5)))) + ((BR_MIS_PRED * 4)/CPU_CYCLES) )
>>
> 
> Thanks for sharing your metric version, But I still wonder, is BR_MIS_PRED not classified
> as frontend bound? 

We're counting branch mispredicts as an extra cost so we subtract it
from frontend_bound because branch related stalls are covered by
bad_speculation where we have added BR_MIS_PRED instead of subtracting.

Unfortunately I'm just the middle man here, I didn't actually work
directly on producing these metrics so I hope nothing gets lost in my
explanation.

> How do you judge the extra improvement by subtracting branch mispredicts?

As far as I know the repo that I mentioned above will have some
benchmarks and tooling that were used to validate our version. So it
should be apparent by running those.

> 
>> And some more details filled in around the units, for example:
>>
>>     {
>>         "MetricName": "bad_speculation",
>>         "MetricExpr": "100 * ( ((1 - (OP_RETIRED/OP_SPEC)) * (1 -
>> (STALL_SLOT/(CPU_CYCLES * 5)))) + ((BR_MIS_PRED * 4)/CPU_CYCLES) )",
>>         "BriefDescription": "Bad Speculation",
>>         "PublicDescription": "This metric is the percentage of total
>> slots that executed operations and didn't retire due to a pipeline
>> flush.\nThis indicates cycles that were utilized but inefficiently.",
>>         "MetricGroup": "TopdownL1",
>>         "ScaleUnit": "1percent of slots"
>>     },
>>
> 
> My "wasted" metric was changed according to the arm documentation description, it was originally
> "bad_speculation".  I will change "wasted" back to "bad_speculation", if you wish.

Yeah that would be good. I think since that document we've tried to
align names more to what was already out there and bad_speculation was
probably judged to be a better description. For example it's already
used in tools/perf/pmu-events/arch/arm64/hisilicon/hip08/metrics.json

> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Jing
> 
> 
>> So ignoring the errata issue, the main reason to hold off is for
>> consistency and churn because these metrics in this format will be
>> released for all cores going forwards.
>>
>> Thanks
>> James
>>

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