Date:   Wed, 21 Dec 2022 11:30:58 -0500
From:   Mathieu Desnoyers <mathieu.desnoyers@...icios.com>
To:     Joel Fernandes <joel@...lfernandes.org>
Cc:     Frederic Weisbecker <frederic@...nel.org>,
        linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
        Josh Triplett <josh@...htriplett.org>,
        Lai Jiangshan <jiangshanlai@...il.com>,
        "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@...nel.org>, rcu@...r.kernel.org,
        Steven Rostedt <rostedt@...dmis.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC 0/2] srcu: Remove pre-flip memory barrier

On 2022-12-20 23:26, Joel Fernandes wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Dec 20, 2022, at 10:43 PM, Mathieu Desnoyers <mathieu.desnoyers@...icios.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 2022-12-20 19:58, Frederic Weisbecker wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 01:49:57AM +0100, Frederic Weisbecker wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 07:15:00PM -0500, Joel Fernandes wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 5:45 PM Frederic Weisbecker <frederic@...nel.org> wrote:
>>>>> Agreed about (1).
>>>>>
>>>>>> _ In (2), E pairs with the address-dependency between idx and lock_count.
>>>>>
>>>>> But that is not the only reason. If that was the only reason for (2),
>>>>> then there is an smp_mb() just before the next-scan post-flip before
>>>>> the lock counts are read.
>>>>
>>>> The post-flip barrier makes sure the new idx is visible on the next READER's
>>>> turn, but it doesn't protect against the fact that "READ idx then WRITE lock[idx]"
>>>> may appear unordered from the update side POV if there is no barrier between the
>>>> scan and the flip.
>>>>
>>>> If you remove the smp_mb() from the litmus test I sent, things explode.
>>> Or rather, look at it the other way, if there is no barrier between the lock
>>> scan and the index flip (E), then the index flip can appear to be written before the
>>> lock is read. Which means you may start activating the index before you finish
>>> reading it (at least it appears that way from the readers pont of view).
>>
>> Considering that you can have pre-existing readers from arbitrary index appearing anywhere in the grace period (because a reader can fetch the
>> index and be preempted for an arbitrary amount of time before incrementing the lock count), the grace period algorithm needs to deal with the fact that a newcoming reader can appear in a given index either before or after the flip.
>>
>> I don't see how flipping the index before or after loading the unlock/lock values would break anything (except for unlikely counter overflow situations as previously discussed).
> 
> If you say unlikely, that means it can happen some times which is bad enough ;-). Maybe you mean impossible.

I mean that if we have a synchronize_srcu preemption long enough to get 
2^32 or 2^64 concurrent srcu read-side critical sections, I strongly 
suspect that RCU stall detection will yell loudly. And if it does not 
already, then we should make it so.

So I mean "impossible unless the system is already unusable", rather 
than just "unlikely".

Thanks,

Mathieu

> I would not settle for anything less than keeping the memory barrier around if it helps unlikely cases, but only D does help for the theoretical wrapping/overflow issue. E is broken and does not even help the theoretical issue IMO. And both D and E do not affect correctness IMO.
> 
> Anyway in all likelihood, I will be trying to remove E completely and clarify docs on D in the coming weeks. And also try to drop the size of the counters per our discussions
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Mathieu
>>
>> -- 
>> Mathieu Desnoyers
>> EfficiOS Inc.
>> https://www.efficios.com
>>

-- 
Mathieu Desnoyers
EfficiOS Inc.
https://www.efficios.com

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