Message-ID: <167275943112.2799906.2650046969237060663@Monstersaurus>
Date:   Tue, 03 Jan 2023 15:23:51 +0000
From:   Kieran Bingham <kieran.bingham@...asonboard.com>
To:     Laurent Pinchart <laurent.pinchart@...asonboard.com>
Cc:     Sakari Ailus <sakari.ailus@...ux.intel.com>,
        Barnabás Pőcze <pobrn@...tonmail.com>,
        linux-media@...r.kernel.org,
        Mauro Carvalho Chehab <mchehab@...nel.org>,
        Tomi Valkeinen <tomi.valkeinen@...asonboard.com>,
        Hans Verkuil <hverkuil-cisco@...all.nl>,
        Christophe JAILLET <christophe.jaillet@...adoo.fr>,
        open list <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH] media: v4l2-dev: sysfs: Support streaming attribute

Quoting Laurent Pinchart (2023-01-03 13:31:28)
> Hi Kieran,
> 
> On Tue, Jan 03, 2023 at 09:33:22AM +0000, Kieran Bingham wrote:
> > Quoting Laurent Pinchart (2023-01-02 13:35:33)
> > > On Mon, Jan 02, 2023 at 01:14:15PM +0000, Sakari Ailus wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 01:44:38AM +0000, Barnabás Pőcze wrote:
> > > > > On 2022. december 26., hétfő 10:52, Laurent Pinchart wrote:
> > > > > > On Fri, Dec 23, 2022 at 11:17:35PM +0000, Kieran Bingham wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Provide a streaming attribute to allow userspace to interogate if a device
> > > > > > > is actively streaming or not.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > This will allow desktop notifications to report if a camera or device
> > > > > > > is active on the system, rather than just 'open' which can occur when
> > > > > > > configuring the device.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Bug: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire/pipewire/-/issues/2669
> > > > > > > Signed-off-by: Kieran Bingham kieran.bingham@...asonboard.com
> > > > > > > ---
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > This is a quick POC to see if such a facility makes sense.
> > > > > > > I'm weary that not all video devices may have the queues registered on
> > > > > > > the struct video_device, but this seems like an effective way to be able
> > > > > > > to determine if a device is actively streaming on a system.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I can imagine multiple problems, from race conditions to permissions and
> > > > > > privacy. In order to comment on the fitness of this solution to address
> > > > > > the problem you're trying to solve, could you describe the actual
> > > > > > problem ?
> > > > > 
> > > > > The issue is explained in the following thread:
> > > > > https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire/pipewire/-/issues/2669#note_1697388
> > > > > 
> > > > > In short, the user wants to show a "camera-in-use" indicator when the laptop camera
> > > > > is used. The script that the user previously had only checked if /dev/video0
> > > > > was open in any process, if it was, the indicator was shown. However, libcamera
> > > > > - at least at the moment - keeps the file descriptor open as long as the Camera
> > > > > object exists, which pipewire keeps alive for the entire lifetime of the device,
> > > > > therefore the "camera-in-use" indicator is always shown.
> > > > 
> > > > A sysfs attribute is not a great way to address this.
> > > > 
> > > > libcamera certainly has information on whether streaming is ongoing. The
> > > > information should come from there. Or Pipewire. Dbus perhaps?
> > > 
> > > I tend to agree, I think this is best solved in userspace where PipeWire
> > > can have a centralized view of all cameras in the system, and of their
> > > users.
> > 
> > I fear that misses the entire point I was trying to make.
> > 
> > Lets say pipewire 'is' available and in use and can be used to capture
> > video streams for video calls, that's fine. But what happens if a user
> > runs a gstreamer pipeline without using the pipewire source, or a
> > suspcious process runs "yavta" and captures an image or stream
> > discreetly...
> > 
> > Only the kernel has a true centralised view of what devices are in use.
> 
> That's right, but at the same time, the kernel as little view of what a
> "camera" is.
> 
> At the beginning of V4L a video capture node was a TV capture card (soon
> with a few exceptions), then it also modelled a camera, for the past ten
> years at least it's "just" a DMA engine in many cases, and relatively
> recently even evolved to simply model a data flow endpoint with the
> addition of metadata video nodes. This doesn't even mention usage of
> video capture nodes in codecs or other memory to memory devices. Video
> devices are now in many cases just one of the many components in a
> camera pipeline.
> 
> In most cases drivers can reasonably decide which video devices most
> likely represent a "camera", but that an approximation in any case, and
> not a general guarantee. In userspace the situation is worse, the link
> between a video device and a camera has been long lost.  We started
> recovering it with libcamera, which is, today, the only open-source
> component available in Linux systems that has knowledge of cameras, not
> just video device nodes.
> 
> > > > Alternatively libcamera could close the video devices while not streaming
> > > > but that would involve e.g. releasing possible video buffer allocations as
> > > > well, increasing streaming start latency.
> > 
> > Or is it just that in that case 'lsof' should be sufficient?
> > 
> > The problem I have with that is - just like with the issue when the
> > Privacy LED comes on during power up/probe - then any time a device is
> > opened to identify the device and not necessarily use it - the 'camera
> > in use' notification would get flashed...
> 
> Regardless of whether an open device node indication or a streaming
> status is used, you don't want to indicate a camera is used because the
> user is watching a movie and the V4L2-based codec is in use. You thus
> need to at least filter out unrelated video devices in userspace, and if
> you want to do so for privacy reasons, hardcoding in PipeWire (or
> anywhere else) a heuristic will be prone to false positives or false
> negatives. That isn't a good idea in my opinion, I believe this problem
> can only be solved by handling the concept of "camera" in userspace.

Indeed, with v4l2 based codecs, this gets far more complex.

I think it's a shame we can't get this state globally, in a way that
can't be 'hidden' or 'subverted' but I'll just consider this patch
dropped.

--
Kieran


> 
> > > Closing video (and subdev) nodes when the camera is not in use would be
> > > good I think. It doesn't mean we have to open them when starting
> > > capture, explicit open/close operation (or similar, maybe introducing a
> > > capture session object in the libcamera API would also make sense, it
> > > should be considered as part of the same issue) could help with this.
> > 
> > I'm not talking about libcamera in this thread. It's how does a user
> > correctly identify when a camera is in use globally in a system.
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> 
> Laurent Pinchart

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