linux-kernel - Re: [PATCH] mmc: core: Allow to avoid REQ_FUA if the eMMC supports an internal cache

lists.openwall.net		lists / announce owl-users owl-dev john-users john-dev passwdqc-users yescrypt popa3d-users / oss-security kernel-hardening musl sabotage tlsify passwords / crypt-dev xvendor / Bugtraq Full-Disclosure linux-kernel linux-netdev linux-ext4 linux-hardening linux-cve-announce PHC
Open Source and information security mailing list archives

Hash Suite: Windows password security audit tool. GUI, reports in PDF.

[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [day] [month] [year] [list]

Date:   Tue, 21 Mar 2023 14:28:17 +0100
From:   Ulf Hansson <ulf.hansson@...aro.org>
To:     Christoph Hellwig <hch@...radead.org>
Cc:     Adrian Hunter <adrian.hunter@...el.com>, linux-mmc@...r.kernel.org,
        Wenchao Chen <wenchao.chen666@...il.com>,
        Avri Altman <avri.altman@....com>,
        Christian Lohle <cloehle@...erstone.com>,
        linux-block@...r.kernel.org, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
        Bean Huo <beanhuo@...ron.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] mmc: core: Allow to avoid REQ_FUA if the eMMC supports an
 internal cache

On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 at 13:37, Christoph Hellwig <hch@...radead.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Mar 20, 2023 at 04:24:36PM +0100, Ulf Hansson wrote:
> > > Neither to ATA or SCSI, but applications and file systems always very
> > > much expected it, so withou it storage devices would be considered
> > > fault.  Only NVMe actually finally made it part of the standard.
> >
> > Even if the standard doesn't say, it's perfectly possible that the
> > storage device implements it.
>
> That's exactly what I'm saying above.
>
> > > But these are completely separate issue.  Torn writes are completely
> > > unrelated to cache flushes.  You can indeed work around torn writes
> > > by checksums, but not the lack of cache flushes or vice versa.
> >
> > It's not a separate issue for eMMC. Please read the complete commit
> > message for further clarifications in this regard.
>
> The commit message claims that checksums replace cache flushes.  Which
> is dangerously wrong.  So please don't refer me to it again - this
> dangerously incorrect commit message is wht alerted me to reply to the
> patch.

That was not the intent, but rather to state that REQ_FUA isn't the
only thing a filesystem can rely on, there are other things too. If
it's striving towards being more tolerant to sudden power failures, I
mean.

Anyway, thanks for your advice, I will drop these parts from the
commit message to make sure it doesn't cause confusion.

>
> > > > However, the issue has been raised that reliable write is not
> > > > needed to provide sufficient assurance of data integrity, and that
> > > > in fact, cache flush can be used instead and perform better.
> > >
> > > It does not.
> >
> > Can you please elaborate on this?
>
> Flushing caches does not replace the invariant of not tearing subsector
> writes.  And if you need to use reliable writes for (some) devices to
> not tear sectors, no amount of cache flushing is going to paper over
> the problem.

Of course, then I get your point!

I think the confusing part here is that the internals of the eMMC
treats a "reliable write" as a cache flush too. At least this is the
case for earlier eMMC devices, where the write-cache couldn't be
explicitly controlled by the host.

Kind regards
Uffe