linux-kernel - Re: [RFC] Should writes to /dev/urandom immediately affect reads?

lists.openwall.net		lists / announce owl-users owl-dev john-users john-dev passwdqc-users yescrypt popa3d-users / oss-security kernel-hardening musl sabotage tlsify passwords / crypt-dev xvendor / Bugtraq Full-Disclosure linux-kernel linux-netdev linux-ext4 linux-hardening linux-cve-announce PHC
Open Source and information security mailing list archives

Hash Suite: Windows password security audit tool. GUI, reports in PDF.

[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [thread-next>] [day] [month] [year] [list]

Date:   Wed, 20 Sep 2023 12:32:03 -0700
From:   Eric Biggers <ebiggers@...nel.org>
To:     Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>
Cc:     "Jason A. Donenfeld" <Jason@...c4.com>,
        linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, linux-crypto@...r.kernel.org,
        Theodore Ts'o <tytso@....edu>,
        Dominik Brodowski <linux@...inikbrodowski.net>,
        Jann Horn <jannh@...gle.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC] Should writes to /dev/urandom immediately affect reads?

Hi Linus,

On Wed, Sep 20, 2023 at 11:48:26AM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Sept 2023 at 23:06, Eric Biggers <ebiggers@...nel.org> wrote:
> >
> > This would be the potential change, BTW:
> 
> Entirely regardless of your fundamental question, no, that's not the
> potential change.
> 
> That causes a crng_reseed() even if the write fails completely and
> returns -EFAULT.
> 
> So at a *minimum*, I'd expect the patch to be be something like
> 
>         memzero_explicit(block, sizeof(block));
> -       return ret ? ret : -EFAULT;
> +       if (!ret)
> +               return -EFAULT;
> +       crng_reseed(NULL);
> +       return ret;
> 
> but even then I'd ask
> 
>  - wouldn't we want some kind of minimum check?
> 
>  - do we really trust writes to add any actual entropy at all and at what point?
> 
> which are admittedly likely the same question just in different guises.

Whether to credit entropy for writes to /dev/{u,}random is an unrelated topic,
and the answer is clearly "no, we must not, and we never have" (as I mentioned
in the second paragraph of my email).  I understand the last discussion
https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20220322191436.110963-1-Jason@zx2c4.com/T/#u
diverged into both topics, but they're not directly related.  Reseeding the CRNG
just makes it up to date with the entropy pool; nothing more than that.

Yes, obviously there's no point in reseeding if nothing actually got added, so
we could skip the reseed in that case if we want to.

> 
> Also, are there any relevant architectures where
> "try_to_generate_entropy()" doesn't work? IOW, why do you even care?
> 

There are, as shown by the fact that the full unification of /dev/urandom and
/dev/random failed yet again.  But similarly, that's unrelated.  The actual
question, which I'm attempting to start a discussion about without getting
sidetracked into questions that may seem related but actually aren't, is simply
whether writes to /dev/{u,}random should immediately affect reads.

- Eric