Message-ID: <20231113124412.GA18974@pendragon.ideasonboard.com>
Date:   Mon, 13 Nov 2023 14:44:12 +0200
From:   Laurent Pinchart <laurent.pinchart@...asonboard.com>
To:     Hans Verkuil <hverkuil@...all.nl>
Cc:     Sakari Ailus <sakari.ailus@....fi>,
        Shengjiu Wang <shengjiu.wang@....com>, tfiga@...omium.org,
        m.szyprowski@...sung.com, mchehab@...nel.org,
        linux-media@...r.kernel.org, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
        shengjiu.wang@...il.com, Xiubo.Lee@...il.com, festevam@...il.com,
        nicoleotsuka@...il.com, lgirdwood@...il.com, broonie@...nel.org,
        perex@...ex.cz, tiwai@...e.com, alsa-devel@...a-project.org,
        linuxppc-dev@...ts.ozlabs.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH v9 10/15] media: uapi: Add V4L2_CTRL_TYPE_FIXED_POINT

Hi Hans,

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 01:05:12PM +0100, Hans Verkuil wrote:
> On 13/11/2023 12:43, Laurent Pinchart wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 11:28:51AM +0000, Sakari Ailus wrote:
> >> On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 12:24:14PM +0100, Hans Verkuil wrote:
> >>> On 13/11/2023 12:07, Laurent Pinchart wrote:
> >>>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 11:56:49AM +0100, Hans Verkuil wrote:
> >>>>> On 13/11/2023 11:42, Laurent Pinchart wrote:
> >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 11:29:09AM +0100, Hans Verkuil wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 10/11/2023 06:48, Shengjiu Wang wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Fixed point controls are used by the user to configure
> >>>>>>>> a fixed point value in 64bits, which Q31.32 format.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Signed-off-by: Shengjiu Wang <shengjiu.wang@....com>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This patch adds a new control type. This is something that also needs to be
> >>>>>>> tested by v4l2-compliance, and for that we need to add support for this to
> >>>>>>> one of the media test-drivers. The best place for that is the vivid driver,
> >>>>>>> since that has already a bunch of test controls for other control types.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> See e.g. VIVID_CID_INTEGER64 in vivid-ctrls.c.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Can you add a patch adding a fixed point test control to vivid?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't think V4L2_CTRL_TYPE_FIXED_POINT is a good idea. This seems to
> >>>>>> relate more to units than control types. We have lots of fixed-point
> >>>>>> values in controls already, using the 32-bit and 64-bit integer control
> >>>>>> types. They use various locations for the decimal point, depending on
> >>>>>> the control. If we want to make this more explicit to users, we should
> >>>>>> work on adding unit support to the V4L2 controls.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Fixed Point" is not a unit, it's a type. 'Db', 'Hz' etc. are units.
> >>>>
> >>>> It's not a unit, but I think it's related to units. My point is that,
> >>>> without units support, I don't see why we need a formal definition of
> >>>> fixed-point types, and why this series couldn't just use
> >>>> VIVID_CID_INTEGER64. Drivers already interpret VIVID_CID_INTEGER64
> >>>> values as they see fit.
> >>>
> >>> They do? That's new to me. A quick grep for V4L2_CTRL_TYPE_INTEGER64
> >>> (I assume you meant that rather than VIVID_CID_INTEGER64) shows that it
> > 
> > Yes, I meant V4L2_CTRL_TYPE_INTEGER64. Too hasty copy & paste :-)
> > 
> >>> is always interpreted as a 64 bit integer and nothing else. As it should.
> > 
> > The most common case for control handling in drivers is taking the
> > integer value and converting it to a register value, using
> > device-specific encoding of the register value. It can be a fixed-point
> > format or something else, depending on the device. My point is that
> > drivers routinely convert a "plain" integer to something else, and that
> > has never been considered as a cause of concern. I don't see why it
> > would be different in this series.
> > 
> >>> And while we do not have support for units (other than the documentation),
> >>> we do have type support in the form of V4L2_CTRL_TYPE_*.
> >>>
> >>>>> A quick "git grep -i "fixed point" Documentation/userspace-api/media/'
> >>>>> only shows a single driver specific control (dw100.rst).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm not aware of other controls in mainline that use fixed point.
> >>>>
> >>>> The analog gain control for sensors for instance.
> >>>
> >>> Not really. The documentation is super vague:
> >>>
> >>> V4L2_CID_ANALOGUE_GAIN (integer)
> >>>
> >>> 	Analogue gain is gain affecting all colour components in the pixel matrix. The
> >>> 	gain operation is performed in the analogue domain before A/D conversion.
> >>>
> >>> And the integer is just a range. Internally it might map to some fixed
> >>> point value, but userspace won't see that, it's hidden in the driver AFAICT.
> > 
> > It's hidden so well that libcamera has a database of the sensor it
> > supports, with formulas to map a real gain value to the
> > V4L2_CID_ANALOGUE_GAIN control. The encoding of the integer value does
> > matter, and the kernel doesn't expose it. We may or may not consider
> > that as a shortcoming of the V4L2 control API, but in any case it's the
> > situation we have today.
> > 
> >> I wonder if Laurent meant digital gain.
> > 
> > No, I meant analog. It applies to digital gain too though.
> > 
> >> Those are often Q numbers. The practice there has been that the default
> >> value yields gain of 1.
> >>
> >> There are probably many other examples in controls where something being
> >> controlled isn't actually an integer while integer controls are still being
> >> used for the purpose.
> > 
> > A good summary of my opinion :-)
> 
> And that works fine as long as userspace doesn't need to know what the value
> actually means.
> 
> That's not the case here. The control is really a fractional Hz value:
> 
> +``V4L2_CID_M2M_AUDIO_SOURCE_RATE_OFFSET (fixed point)``
> +    Sets the offset from the audio source sample rate, unit is Hz.
> +    The offset compensates for any clock drift. The actual source audio sample
> +    rate is the ideal source audio sample rate from
> +    ``V4L2_CID_M2M_AUDIO_SOURCE_RATE`` plus this fixed point offset.

I don't see why this would require a new type, you can use
V4L2_CTRL_TYPE_INTEGER64, and document the control as containing
fixed-point values in Q31.32 format.

> >> Instead of this patch, I'd prefer to have a way to express the meaning of
> >> the control value, be it a Q number or something else, and do that
> >> independently of the type of the control.
> 
> Huh? How is that different from the type of the control? You have integers
> (one type) and fixed point (another type).
> 
> Or do you want a more general V4L2_CTRL_TYPE_ that specifies the N.M values
> explicitly?
> 
> I think the main reason why we use integer controls for gain is that we
> never had a fixed point control type and you could get away with that in
> user space for that particular use-case.
> 
> Based on the V4L2_CID_NOTIFY_GAINS documentation the gain value can typically
> be calculated as (value / default_value),

Typically, but not always. Some sensor have an exponential gain model,
and some have weird gain representation, such as 1/x. That's getting out
of scope though.

> but that won't work for a rate offset
> control as above, or for e.g. CSC matrices for color converters.
> 
> > Agreed.
> > 
> >>> In the case of this particular series the control type is really a fixed point
> >>> value with a documented unit (Hz). It really is not something you want to
> >>> use type INTEGER64 for.
> >>>
> >>>>> Note that V4L2_CTRL_TYPE_FIXED_POINT is a Q31.32 format. By setting
> >>>>> min/max/step you can easily map that to just about any QN.M format where
> >>>>> N <= 31 and M <= 32.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In the case of dw100 it is a bit different in that it is quite specialized
> >>>>> and it had to fit in 16 bits.

-- 
Regards,

Laurent Pinchart

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