Message-ID: <7626e0f8-ce31-469e-b49c-f2fba664756f@xs4all.nl>
Date:   Thu, 16 Nov 2023 09:01:21 +0100
From:   Hans Verkuil <hverkuil@...all.nl>
To:     Shengjiu Wang <shengjiu.wang@....com>
Cc:     Sakari Ailus <sakari.ailus@....fi>, m.szyprowski@...sung.com,
        mchehab@...nel.org, linux-media@...r.kernel.org,
        linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, shengjiu.wang@...il.com,
        Xiubo.Lee@...il.com, festevam@...il.com, nicoleotsuka@...il.com,
        lgirdwood@...il.com, broonie@...nel.org, perex@...ex.cz,
        tiwai@...e.com, alsa-devel@...a-project.org,
        linuxppc-dev@...ts.ozlabs.org, Tomasz Figa <tfiga@...omium.org>,
        Laurent Pinchart <laurent.pinchart@...asonboard.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v9 10/15] media: uapi: Add V4L2_CTRL_TYPE_FIXED_POINT

Shengjiu,

FYI: I started work on adding the fraction_bits field. I hope to have a
patch for that early next week.

Regards,

	Hans

On 16/11/2023 08:31, Tomasz Figa wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2023 at 8:49 PM Laurent Pinchart
> <laurent.pinchart@...asonboard.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Hans,
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2023 at 12:19:31PM +0100, Hans Verkuil wrote:
>>> On 11/15/23 11:55, Laurent Pinchart wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2023 at 09:09:42AM +0100, Hans Verkuil wrote:
>>>>> On 13/11/2023 13:44, Laurent Pinchart wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 01:05:12PM +0100, Hans Verkuil wrote:
>>>>>>> On 13/11/2023 12:43, Laurent Pinchart wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 11:28:51AM +0000, Sakari Ailus wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 12:24:14PM +0100, Hans Verkuil wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 13/11/2023 12:07, Laurent Pinchart wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 11:56:49AM +0100, Hans Verkuil wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13/11/2023 11:42, Laurent Pinchart wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 11:29:09AM +0100, Hans Verkuil wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/11/2023 06:48, Shengjiu Wang wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fixed point controls are used by the user to configure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a fixed point value in 64bits, which Q31.32 format.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Signed-off-by: Shengjiu Wang <shengjiu.wang@....com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This patch adds a new control type. This is something that also needs to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tested by v4l2-compliance, and for that we need to add support for this to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one of the media test-drivers. The best place for that is the vivid driver,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> since that has already a bunch of test controls for other control types.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> See e.g. VIVID_CID_INTEGER64 in vivid-ctrls.c.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can you add a patch adding a fixed point test control to vivid?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think V4L2_CTRL_TYPE_FIXED_POINT is a good idea. This seems to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> relate more to units than control types. We have lots of fixed-point
>>>>>>>>>>>>> values in controls already, using the 32-bit and 64-bit integer control
>>>>>>>>>>>>> types. They use various locations for the decimal point, depending on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the control. If we want to make this more explicit to users, we should
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work on adding unit support to the V4L2 controls.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Fixed Point" is not a unit, it's a type. 'Db', 'Hz' etc. are units.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's not a unit, but I think it's related to units. My point is that,
>>>>>>>>>>> without units support, I don't see why we need a formal definition of
>>>>>>>>>>> fixed-point types, and why this series couldn't just use
>>>>>>>>>>> VIVID_CID_INTEGER64. Drivers already interpret VIVID_CID_INTEGER64
>>>>>>>>>>> values as they see fit.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They do? That's new to me. A quick grep for V4L2_CTRL_TYPE_INTEGER64
>>>>>>>>>> (I assume you meant that rather than VIVID_CID_INTEGER64) shows that it
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, I meant V4L2_CTRL_TYPE_INTEGER64. Too hasty copy & paste :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> is always interpreted as a 64 bit integer and nothing else. As it should.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The most common case for control handling in drivers is taking the
>>>>>>>> integer value and converting it to a register value, using
>>>>>>>> device-specific encoding of the register value. It can be a fixed-point
>>>>>>>> format or something else, depending on the device. My point is that
>>>>>>>> drivers routinely convert a "plain" integer to something else, and that
>>>>>>>> has never been considered as a cause of concern. I don't see why it
>>>>>>>> would be different in this series.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And while we do not have support for units (other than the documentation),
>>>>>>>>>> we do have type support in the form of V4L2_CTRL_TYPE_*.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> A quick "git grep -i "fixed point" Documentation/userspace-api/media/'
>>>>>>>>>>>> only shows a single driver specific control (dw100.rst).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not aware of other controls in mainline that use fixed point.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The analog gain control for sensors for instance.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not really. The documentation is super vague:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> V4L2_CID_ANALOGUE_GAIN (integer)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>       Analogue gain is gain affecting all colour components in the pixel matrix. The
>>>>>>>>>>       gain operation is performed in the analogue domain before A/D conversion.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And the integer is just a range. Internally it might map to some fixed
>>>>>>>>>> point value, but userspace won't see that, it's hidden in the driver AFAICT.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's hidden so well that libcamera has a database of the sensor it
>>>>>>>> supports, with formulas to map a real gain value to the
>>>>>>>> V4L2_CID_ANALOGUE_GAIN control. The encoding of the integer value does
>>>>>>>> matter, and the kernel doesn't expose it. We may or may not consider
>>>>>>>> that as a shortcoming of the V4L2 control API, but in any case it's the
>>>>>>>> situation we have today.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wonder if Laurent meant digital gain.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, I meant analog. It applies to digital gain too though.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Those are often Q numbers. The practice there has been that the default
>>>>>>>>> value yields gain of 1.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are probably many other examples in controls where something being
>>>>>>>>> controlled isn't actually an integer while integer controls are still being
>>>>>>>>> used for the purpose.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A good summary of my opinion :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And that works fine as long as userspace doesn't need to know what the value
>>>>>>> actually means.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's not the case here. The control is really a fractional Hz value:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +``V4L2_CID_M2M_AUDIO_SOURCE_RATE_OFFSET (fixed point)``
>>>>>>> +    Sets the offset from the audio source sample rate, unit is Hz.
>>>>>>> +    The offset compensates for any clock drift. The actual source audio sample
>>>>>>> +    rate is the ideal source audio sample rate from
>>>>>>> +    ``V4L2_CID_M2M_AUDIO_SOURCE_RATE`` plus this fixed point offset.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't see why this would require a new type, you can use
>>>>>> V4L2_CTRL_TYPE_INTEGER64, and document the control as containing
>>>>>> fixed-point values in Q31.32 format.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would you want to do this? I can store a double in a long long int,
>>>>> and just document that the variable is really a double, but why would you?
>>>>
>>>> I'm happy we have no floating point control types ;-)
>>>>
>>>>> The cost of adding a FIXED_POINT type is minimal, and having this type
>>>>> makes it easy to work with fixed point controls (think about proper reporting
>>>>> and setting of the value in v4l2-ctl and user applications in general that
>>>>> deal with controls).
>>>>
>>>> The next thing you know is that someone will want a FIXED_POINT_Q15_16
>>>> type as 64-bit would be too large to store in a large array. And then
>>>> Q7.8. And Q3.12. And a bunch of other type. I really don't see what
>>>> added value they bring compared to using the 32-bit and 64-bit integer
>>>> types we already have. Every new type that is added adds complexity to
>>>> userspace that will need to deal with the type.
>>>>
>>>>> If this would add a thousand lines of complex code, then this would be a
>>>>> consideration, but this is just a few lines.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just to give an example, if you use 'v4l2-ctl -l' to list a int64 control
>>>>> and it reports the value 13958643712, would you be able to see that that is
>>>>> really 3.25 in fixed point format? With the right type it would be printed
>>>>> like that. Much easier to work work.
>>>>
>>>> The same is true for analog gains, where x1.23 or +12dB is nicer to read
>>>> than raw values. If we care about printing values in command line tools
>>>> (which is nice to have, but certainly not the majority of use cases),
>>>> then I would recommand working on units support for V4L2 controls, to
>>>> convey how values are encoded, and in what unit they are expressed.
>>>
>>> So you prefer to have a way to specify the N value in QM.N as part
>>> of the control information?
>>>
>>> E.g. add a '__u8 fraction_bits' field to structs v4l2_query_ext_ctrl
>>> and v4l2_queryctrl. If 0, then it is an integer, otherwise it is the N
>>> in QM.N.
>>>
>>> I can go along with that. This would be valid for INTEGER, INTEGER64,
>>> U8, U16 and U32 controls (the last three are only used in control arrays).
>>
>> I think that would be nicer. Not only is it more flexible, but it also
>> allows applications to ignore that information, and still operate on
>> integer controls without any modification.
>>
>>> A better name for 'fraction_bits' is welcome, I took it from the wikipedia
>>> article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-point_arithmetic
>>>
> 
> I like the idea and the name sounds fine to me too.
> 
>>> Reporting unit names is certainly possible, but should perhaps be done
>>> with a separate ioctl? E.g. VIDIOC_QUERY_CTRL_UNIT. It is not typically
>>> needed for applications, unless they need to report values. In theory
>>> it can also be reported through VIDIOC_QUERY_EXT_CTRL by using, say,
>>> 4 of the reserved fields for a 'char unit[16];' field. But I feel a
>>> bit uncomfortable taking reserved fields for something that is rarely
>>> needed.
>>
>> I would make the unit an enumerated integer value. If it's a string, it
>> gets more difficult to operate on. Having to standardize a unit means
>> that the unit will get reviewed.
>>
> 
> What usage do we envision for units? Could one give some examples? My
> impression is that we already defined most of the controls with
> explicit units.
> 
>>>>>>>>> Instead of this patch, I'd prefer to have a way to express the meaning of
>>>>>>>>> the control value, be it a Q number or something else, and do that
>>>>>>>>> independently of the type of the control.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Huh? How is that different from the type of the control? You have integers
>>>>>>> (one type) and fixed point (another type).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or do you want a more general V4L2_CTRL_TYPE_ that specifies the N.M values
>>>>>>> explicitly?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the main reason why we use integer controls for gain is that we
>>>>>>> never had a fixed point control type and you could get away with that in
>>>>>>> user space for that particular use-case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Based on the V4L2_CID_NOTIFY_GAINS documentation the gain value can typically
>>>>>>> be calculated as (value / default_value),
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Typically, but not always. Some sensor have an exponential gain model,
>>>>>> and some have weird gain representation, such as 1/x. That's getting out
>>>>>> of scope though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> but that won't work for a rate offset
>>>>>>> control as above, or for e.g. CSC matrices for color converters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In the case of this particular series the control type is really a fixed point
>>>>>>>>>> value with a documented unit (Hz). It really is not something you want to
>>>>>>>>>> use type INTEGER64 for.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Note that V4L2_CTRL_TYPE_FIXED_POINT is a Q31.32 format. By setting
>>>>>>>>>>>> min/max/step you can easily map that to just about any QN.M format where
>>>>>>>>>>>> N <= 31 and M <= 32.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In the case of dw100 it is a bit different in that it is quite specialized
>>>>>>>>>>>> and it had to fit in 16 bits.
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>>
>> Laurent Pinchart

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