linux-kernel - Re: [RFC PATCH 47/86] rcu: select PREEMPT

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Message-ID: <20231120224356.7e9e5423@gandalf.local.home>
Date:   Mon, 20 Nov 2023 22:43:56 -0500
From:   Steven Rostedt <rostedt@...dmis.org>
To:     "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@...nel.org>
Cc:     Ankur Arora <ankur.a.arora@...cle.com>,
        linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, tglx@...utronix.de,
        peterz@...radead.org, torvalds@...ux-foundation.org,
        linux-mm@...ck.org, x86@...nel.org, akpm@...ux-foundation.org,
        luto@...nel.org, bp@...en8.de, dave.hansen@...ux.intel.com,
        hpa@...or.com, mingo@...hat.com, juri.lelli@...hat.com,
        vincent.guittot@...aro.org, willy@...radead.org, mgorman@...e.de,
        jon.grimm@....com, bharata@....com, raghavendra.kt@....com,
        boris.ostrovsky@...cle.com, konrad.wilk@...cle.com,
        jgross@...e.com, andrew.cooper3@...rix.com, mingo@...nel.org,
        bristot@...nel.org, mathieu.desnoyers@...icios.com,
        geert@...ux-m68k.org, glaubitz@...sik.fu-berlin.de,
        anton.ivanov@...bridgegreys.com, mattst88@...il.com,
        krypton@...ich-teichert.org, David.Laight@...lab.com,
        richard@....at, mjguzik@...il.com,
        Simon Horman <horms@...ge.net.au>,
        Julian Anastasov <ja@....bg>,
        Alexei Starovoitov <ast@...nel.org>,
        Daniel Borkmann <daniel@...earbox.net>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 47/86] rcu: select PREEMPT_RCU if PREEMPT

On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 16:28:50 -0800
"Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@...nel.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 07, 2023 at 07:27:03PM -0500, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > On Tue,  7 Nov 2023 13:57:33 -0800
> > Ankur Arora <ankur.a.arora@...cle.com> wrote:
> >   
> > > With PREEMPTION being always-on, some configurations might prefer
> > > the stronger forward-progress guarantees provided by PREEMPT_RCU=n
> > > as compared to PREEMPT_RCU=y.
> > > 
> > > So, select PREEMPT_RCU=n for PREEMPT_VOLUNTARY and PREEMPT_NONE and
> > > enabling PREEMPT_RCU=y for PREEMPT or PREEMPT_RT.
> > > 
> > > Note that the preemption model can be changed at runtime (modulo
> > > configurations with ARCH_NO_PREEMPT), but the RCU configuration
> > > is statically compiled.  
> > 
> > I wonder if we should make this a separate patch, and allow PREEMPT_RCU=n
> > when PREEMPT=y?  
> 
> You mean independent of this series?  If so, I am not all that excited
> about allowing a new option due to the effect on testing.  With this full
> series, the number of test scenarios is preserved.
> 
> Actually, that is not exactly true, is it?  It would be if we instead had
> something like this:
> 
> config PREEMPT_RCU
> 	bool
> 	default y if PREEMPT || PREEMPT_RT
> 	depends on !PREEMPT_NONE && !PREEMPT_VOLUNTARY
> 	select TREE_RCU
> 
> Any reason why this would be a problem?

Yes, because with this series, there isn't going to be PREEMPT_NONE,
PREEMPT_VOLUNTARY and PREEMPT as a config option. I mean, you could define
the preference you want at boot up. But it could change at run time.

> 
> Or to put it another way, do you know of anyone who really wants
> a preemptible kernel (CONFIG_PREEMPT=y, CONFIG_PREEMPT_NONE=n
> and CONFIG_PREEMPT_VOLUNTARY=n) but also non-preemptible RCU
> (CONFIG_PREEMPT_RCU=y)?  If so, why?  I am having some difficulty seeing
> how this combination could be at all helpful.  And if it is not helpful,
> we should not allow people to shoot themselves in the foot with it.

With the new preemption model, NONE, VOLUNTARY and PREEMPT are now going to
determine when NEED_RESCHED is set as supposed to NEED_RESCHED_LAZY. As
NEED_RESCHED_LAZY only schedules at kernel / user space transaction, and
NEED_RESCHED will schedule when possible (non-preempt disable section).

 Key: L - NEED_RESCHED_LAZY - schedule only at kernel/user boundary
      N - NEED_RESCHED - schedule whenever possible (like PREEMPT does today)

			SCHED_OTHER	REAL-TIME/DL
			  Schedule	  Schedule

NONE:			      L		     L

VOLUNTARY:		      L		     N

PREEMPT:		      N		     N


So on NONE, NEED_RESCHED_LAZY is set only on scheduling SCHED_OTHER and RT.
Which means, it will not schedule until it goes into user space (*).

On VOLUNTARY, NEED_RESCHED is set on RT/DL tasks, and LAZY on SCHED_OTHER.
So that RT and DL get scheduled just like PREEMPT does today.

On PREEMPT, NEED_RESCHED is always set on all scheduling.

(*) - caveat - After the next tick, if NEED_RESCHED_LAZY is set, then
NEED_RESCHED will be set and the kernel will schedule at the next available
moment, this is true for all three models!

There may be more details to work out, but the above is basically the gist
of the idea. Now, what do you want to do with RCU_PREEMPT? At run time, we
can go from NONE to PREEMPT full! But there may be use cases that do not
want the overhead of always having RCU_PREEMPT, and will want RCU to be a
preempt_disable() section no matter what.

Unless we can switch between RCU_PREEMPT and !RCU_PREEMPT at run time, the
dependency on RCU_PREEMPT tied to PREEMPT doesn't make sense anymore.

> 
> > This could allow us to test this without this having to be part of this
> > series.  
> 
> OK, if you mean for testing purposes but not to go to mainline without
> the rest of the series, I am good with that idea.
> 
> And thank you to Ankur for preserving non-preemptible RCU for those of us
> using system that are adequately but not generously endowed with memory!

Exactly. It sounds like having non-preempt RCU is agnostic to the
preemption model of the system, which is why I think we need to make them
disjoint.

-- Steve