Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2024 10:20:23 +0100
From: Christian König <christian.koenig@....com>
To: Sean Christopherson <seanjc@...gle.com>
Cc: David Stevens <stevensd@...omium.org>,
 Christoph Hellwig <hch@...radead.org>, Paolo Bonzini <pbonzini@...hat.com>,
 Yu Zhang <yu.c.zhang@...ux.intel.com>,
 Isaku Yamahata <isaku.yamahata@...il.com>,
 Zhi Wang <zhi.wang.linux@...il.com>, Maxim Levitsky <mlevitsk@...hat.com>,
 kvmarm@...ts.linux.dev, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, kvm@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH v11 0/8] KVM: allow mapping non-refcounted pages

Sending that out once more since the AMD email servers have converted it 
to HTML mail once more :(

Grrr,
Christian.

Am 14.03.24 um 10:18 schrieb Christian König:
> Am 13.03.24 um 18:26 schrieb Sean Christopherson:
>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2024, Christian König wrote:
>>> Am 13.03.24 um 16:47 schrieb Sean Christopherson:
>>>> [SNIP]
>>>>> It can trivially be that userspace only maps 4KiB of some 2MiB piece of
>>>>> memory the driver has allocate.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I.e. Christoph is (implicitly) saying that instead of modifying KVM to play nice,
>>>>>> we should instead fix the TTM allocations.  And David pointed out that that was
>>>>>> tried and got NAK'd.
>>>>> Well as far as I can see Christoph rejects the complexity coming with the
>>>>> approach of sometimes grabbing the reference and sometimes not.
>>>> Unless I've wildly misread multiple threads, that is not Christoph's objection.
>>>>   From v9 (https://lore.kernel.org/all/ZRpiXsm7X6BFAU%2Fy@infradead.org):
>>>>
>>>>     On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 11:25 PM Christoph Hellwig<hch@...radead.org>   wrote:
>>>>     >
>>>>     > On Fri, Sep 29, 2023 at 09:06:34AM -0700, Sean Christopherson wrote:
>>>>     > > KVM needs to be aware of non-refcounted struct page memory no matter what; see
>>>>     > > CVE-2021-22543 and, commit f8be156be163 ("KVM: do not allow mapping valid but
>>>>     > > non-reference-counted pages").  I don't think it makes any sense whatsoever to
>>>>     > > remove that code and assume every driver in existence will do the right thing.
>>>>     >
>>>>     > Agreed.
>>>>     >
>>>>     > >
>>>>     > > With the cleanups done, playing nice with non-refcounted paged instead of outright
>>>>     > > rejecting them is a wash in terms of lines of code, complexity, and ongoing
>>>>     > > maintenance cost.
>>>>     >
>>>>     > I tend to strongly disagree with that, though.  We can't just let these
>>>>     > non-refcounted pages spread everywhere and instead need to fix their
>>>>     > usage.
>>> And I can only repeat myself that I completely agree with Christoph here.
>> I am so confused.  If you agree with Christoph, why not fix the TTM allocations?
>
> Because the TTM allocation isn't broken in any way.
>
> See in some configurations TTM even uses the DMA API for those 
> allocations and that is actually something Christoph coded.
>
> What Christoph is really pointing out is that absolutely nobody should 
> put non-refcounted pages into a VMA, but again this isn't something 
> TTM does. What TTM does instead is to work with the PFN and puts that 
> into a VMA.
>
> It's just that then KVM comes along and converts the PFN back into a 
> struct page again and that is essentially what causes all the 
> problems, including CVE-2021-22543.
>
>>>>> And I have to agree that this is extremely odd.
>>>> Yes, it's odd and not ideal.  But with nested virtualization, KVM _must_ "map"
>>>> pfns directly into the guest via fields in the control structures that are
>>>> consumed by hardware.  I.e. pfns are exposed to the guest in an "out-of-band"
>>>> structure that is NOT part of the stage-2 page tables.  And wiring those up to
>>>> the MMU notifiers is extremely difficult for a variety of reasons[*].
>>>>
>>>> Because KVM doesn't control which pfns are mapped this way, KVM's compromise is
>>>> to grab a reference to the struct page while the out-of-band mapping exists, i.e.
>>>> to pin the page to prevent use-after-free.
>>> Wait a second, as far as I know this approach doesn't work correctly in all
>>> cases. See here as well:https://lwn.net/Articles/930667/
>>>
>>> The MMU notifier is not only to make sure that pages don't go away and
>>> prevent use after free, but also that PTE updates correctly wait for ongoing
>>> DMA transfers.
>>>
>>> Otherwise quite a bunch of other semantics doesn't work correctly either.
>>>
>>>> And KVM's historical ABI is to support
>>>> any refcounted page for these out-of-band mappings, regardless of whether the
>>>> page was obtained by gup() or follow_pte().
>>> Well see the discussion from last year the LWN article summarizes.
>> Oof.  I suspect that in practice, no one has observed issues because the pages
>> in question are heavily used by the guest and don't get evicted from the page cache.
>
> Well in this case I strongly suggest to block the problematic cases.
>
> It just sounds like KVM never run into problems because nobody is 
> doing any of those problematic cases. If that's true it should be 
> doable to change the UAPI and say this specific combination is 
> forbidden because it could result in data corruption.
>
>>> I'm not an expert for KVM but as far as I can see what you guys do here is
>>> illegal and can lead to corruption.
>>>
>>> Basically you can't create a second channel to modify page content like
>>> that.
>> Well, KVM can, it just needs to honor mmu_notifier events in order to be 100%
>> robust.
>
> Yeah, completely agree.
>
>> That said, while this might be motivation to revisit tying the out-of-band mappings
>> to the mmu_notifier, it has no bearing on the outcome of Christoph's objection.
>> Because (a) AIUI, Christoph is objecting to mapping non-refcounted struct page
>> memory *anywhere*, and (b) in this series, KVM will explicitly disallow non-
>> refcounted pages from being mapped in the out-of-band structures (see below).
>>
>>>> Thus, to support non-refouncted VM_PFNMAP pages without breaking existing userspace,
>>>> KVM resorts to conditionally grabbing references and disllowing non-refcounted
>>>> pages from being inserted into the out-of-band mappings.
>>> Why not only refcount the pages when out of band mappings are requested?
>> That's also what this series effectively does.  By default, KVM will disallow
>> inserting *any* non-refcounted memory into the out-of-band mappings.
>
> Ok than that's basically my inconvenient. I can't really criticize the 
> KVM patch because I don't really understand all the details.
>
> I'm only pointing out from a very high level view how memory 
> management works and that I see some conflict with what KVM does.
>
> As far as I can tell the cleanest approach for KVM would be to have 
> two completely separate handlings:
>
> 1. Using GUP to handle the out-of-band mappings, this one grabs 
> references and honors all the GUP restrictions with the appropriate 
> flags. When VM_PFNMAP is set then those mappings will be rejected. 
> That should also avoid any trouble with file backed mappings.
>
> 2. Using follow_pte() plus an MMU notifier and this one can even 
> handle VMAs with the VM_PFNMAP and VM_IO flag set.
>
>> "By default" because there are use cases where the guest memory pool is hidden
>> from the kernel at boot, and is fully managed by userspace.  I.e. userspace is
>> effectively responsible/trusted to not free/change the mappings for an active
>> guest.
>
> Wow, could that potentially crash the kernel?
>
> Cheers,
> Christian.

Powered by blists - more mailing lists