linux-kernel - Re: [WIP 0/3] Memory model and atomic API in Rust

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Message-ID: <4ciizx33vzooa33ikjn7env6kvkpcv44dsawm4i2avqou2kdk4@b4hj6252l22l>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2024 00:16:07 -0400
From: Kent Overstreet <kent.overstreet@...ux.dev>
To: Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@...il.com>
Cc: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>, 
	rust-for-linux@...r.kernel.org, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, linux-arch@...r.kernel.org, 
	llvm@...ts.linux.dev, Miguel Ojeda <ojeda@...nel.org>, 
	Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor@...il.com>, Wedson Almeida Filho <wedsonaf@...il.com>, 
	Gary Guo <gary@...yguo.net>, Björn Roy Baron <bjorn3_gh@...tonmail.com>, 
	Benno Lossin <benno.lossin@...ton.me>, Andreas Hindborg <a.hindborg@...sung.com>, 
	Alice Ryhl <aliceryhl@...gle.com>, Alan Stern <stern@...land.harvard.edu>, 
	Andrea Parri <parri.andrea@...il.com>, Will Deacon <will@...nel.org>, 
	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>, Nicholas Piggin <npiggin@...il.com>, 
	David Howells <dhowells@...hat.com>, Jade Alglave <j.alglave@....ac.uk>, 
	Luc Maranget <luc.maranget@...ia.fr>, "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@...nel.org>, 
	Akira Yokosawa <akiyks@...il.com>, Daniel Lustig <dlustig@...dia.com>, 
	Joel Fernandes <joel@...lfernandes.org>, Nathan Chancellor <nathan@...nel.org>, 
	Nick Desaulniers <ndesaulniers@...gle.com>, kent.overstreet@...il.com, 
	Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>, elver@...gle.com, Mark Rutland <mark.rutland@....com>, 
	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>, Ingo Molnar <mingo@...hat.com>, Borislav Petkov <bp@...en8.de>, 
	Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@...ux.intel.com>, x86@...nel.org, "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@...or.com>, 
	Catalin Marinas <catalin.marinas@....com>, linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org, 
	linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [WIP 0/3] Memory model and atomic API in Rust

On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 08:51:03PM -0700, Boqun Feng wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 11:10:36PM -0400, Kent Overstreet wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 07:57:20PM -0700, Boqun Feng wrote:
> > > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 10:33:13PM -0400, Kent Overstreet wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 07:26:28PM -0700, Boqun Feng wrote:
> > > > > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 10:07:31PM -0400, Kent Overstreet wrote:
> > > > > [...]
> > > > > > > Boqun already mentioned the "mixing access sizes", which is actually
> > > > > > > quite fundamental in the kernel, where we play lots of games with that
> > > > > > > (typically around locking, where you find patterns line unlock writing
> > > > > > > a zero to a single byte, even though the whole lock data structure is
> > > > > > > a word). And sometimes the access size games are very explicit (eg
> > > > > > > lib/lockref.c).
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I don't think mixing access sizes should be a real barrier. On the read
> > > > > 
> > > > > Well, it actually is, since mixing access sizes is, guess what,
> > > > > an undefined behavior:
> > > > > 
> > > > > (example in https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/sync/atomic/#memory-model-for-atomic-accesses)
> > > > > 
> > > > > 	thread::scope(|s| {
> > > > > 	    // This is UB: using different-sized atomic accesses to the same data
> > > > > 	    s.spawn(|| atomic.store(1, Ordering::Relaxed));
> > > > > 	    s.spawn(|| unsafe {
> > > > > 		let differently_sized = transmute::<&AtomicU16, &AtomicU8>(&atomic);
> > > > > 		differently_sized.store(2, Ordering::Relaxed);
> > > > > 	    });
> > > > > 	});
> > > > > 
> > > > > Of course, you can say "I will just ignore the UB", but if you have to
> > > > > ignore "compiler rules" to make your code work, why bother use compiler
> > > > > builtin in the first place? Being UB means they are NOT guaranteed to
> > > > > work.
> > > > 
> > > > That's not what I'm proposing - you'd need additional compiler support.
> > > 
> > > Ah, OK.
> > > 
> > > > but the new intrinsic would be no different, semantics wise for the
> > > > compiler to model, than a "lock orb".
> > > 
> > > Be ready to be disappointed:
> > > 
> > > 	https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/136281-t-opsem/topic/is.20atomic.20aliasing.20allowed.3F/near/402078545
> > > 	https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/136281-t-opsem/topic/is.20atomic.20aliasing.20allowed.3F/near/402082631
> > > 
> > > ;-)
> > > 
> > > In fact, if you get a chance to read the previous discussion links I
> > > shared, you will find I was just like you in the beginning: hope we
> > > could extend the model to support more kernel code properly. But my
> > > overall feeling is that it's either very challenging or lack of
> > > motivation to do.
> > 
> > That's casting - that doesn't work because compiler people hate
> > aliasing.
> > 
> > But intrinsics for e.g.
> > __atomic32_read_u8(atomic_u32_t *a, unsigned byte)
> > __atomic32_write_u8(atomic_u32_t a*, unsigned byte)
> > 
> 
> so "byte" here is the byte indexing in the u32? Hmm... I guess that'll
> work. But I really don't know whether LLVM/Rust will support such an
> intrinsic...

They're going to need this eventually - really, entire structs that can
be marked as atomic. Types aren't limited to the integers.