linux-kernel - Re: [WIP 0/3] Memory model and atomic API in Rust

lists.openwall.net		lists / announce owl-users owl-dev john-users john-dev passwdqc-users yescrypt popa3d-users / oss-security kernel-hardening musl sabotage tlsify passwords / crypt-dev xvendor / Bugtraq Full-Disclosure linux-kernel linux-netdev linux-ext4 linux-hardening linux-cve-announce PHC
Open Source and information security mailing list archives

Hash Suite: Windows password security audit tool. GUI, reports in PDF.

[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [thread-next>] [day] [month] [year] [list]

Message-ID: <Zf5FEFCfuy0TAjV6@Boquns-Mac-mini.home>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 19:57:20 -0700
From: Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@...il.com>
To: Kent Overstreet <kent.overstreet@...ux.dev>
Cc: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	rust-for-linux@...r.kernel.org, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
	linux-arch@...r.kernel.org, llvm@...ts.linux.dev,
	Miguel Ojeda <ojeda@...nel.org>,	Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor@...il.com>,
	Wedson Almeida Filho <wedsonaf@...il.com>,	Gary Guo <gary@...yguo.net>,
	Björn Roy Baron <bjorn3_gh@...tonmail.com>,
	Benno Lossin <benno.lossin@...ton.me>,
	Andreas Hindborg <a.hindborg@...sung.com>,
	Alice Ryhl <aliceryhl@...gle.com>,
	Alan Stern <stern@...land.harvard.edu>,
	Andrea Parri <parri.andrea@...il.com>,	Will Deacon <will@...nel.org>,
	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
	Nicholas Piggin <npiggin@...il.com>,	David Howells <dhowells@...hat.com>,
	Jade Alglave <j.alglave@....ac.uk>,	Luc Maranget <luc.maranget@...ia.fr>,
	"Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@...nel.org>,
	Akira Yokosawa <akiyks@...il.com>,	Daniel Lustig <dlustig@...dia.com>,
	Joel Fernandes <joel@...lfernandes.org>,
	Nathan Chancellor <nathan@...nel.org>,
	Nick Desaulniers <ndesaulniers@...gle.com>,	kent.overstreet@...il.com,
	Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>, elver@...gle.com,
	Mark Rutland <mark.rutland@....com>,
	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...hat.com>,
 Borislav Petkov <bp@...en8.de>,
	Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@...ux.intel.com>, x86@...nel.org,
	"H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@...or.com>,
	Catalin Marinas <catalin.marinas@....com>,
	linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org, linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [WIP 0/3] Memory model and atomic API in Rust

On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 10:33:13PM -0400, Kent Overstreet wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 07:26:28PM -0700, Boqun Feng wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 10:07:31PM -0400, Kent Overstreet wrote:
> > [...]
> > > > Boqun already mentioned the "mixing access sizes", which is actually
> > > > quite fundamental in the kernel, where we play lots of games with that
> > > > (typically around locking, where you find patterns line unlock writing
> > > > a zero to a single byte, even though the whole lock data structure is
> > > > a word). And sometimes the access size games are very explicit (eg
> > > > lib/lockref.c).
> > > 
> > > I don't think mixing access sizes should be a real barrier. On the read
> > 
> > Well, it actually is, since mixing access sizes is, guess what,
> > an undefined behavior:
> > 
> > (example in https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/sync/atomic/#memory-model-for-atomic-accesses)
> > 
> > 	thread::scope(|s| {
> > 	    // This is UB: using different-sized atomic accesses to the same data
> > 	    s.spawn(|| atomic.store(1, Ordering::Relaxed));
> > 	    s.spawn(|| unsafe {
> > 		let differently_sized = transmute::<&AtomicU16, &AtomicU8>(&atomic);
> > 		differently_sized.store(2, Ordering::Relaxed);
> > 	    });
> > 	});
> > 
> > Of course, you can say "I will just ignore the UB", but if you have to
> > ignore "compiler rules" to make your code work, why bother use compiler
> > builtin in the first place? Being UB means they are NOT guaranteed to
> > work.
> 
> That's not what I'm proposing - you'd need additional compiler support.

Ah, OK.

> but the new intrinsic would be no different, semantics wise for the
> compiler to model, than a "lock orb".

Be ready to be disappointed:

	https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/136281-t-opsem/topic/is.20atomic.20aliasing.20allowed.3F/near/402078545
	https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/136281-t-opsem/topic/is.20atomic.20aliasing.20allowed.3F/near/402082631

;-)

In fact, if you get a chance to read the previous discussion links I
shared, you will find I was just like you in the beginning: hope we
could extend the model to support more kernel code properly. But my
overall feeling is that it's either very challenging or lack of
motivation to do.

Regards,
Boqun