Message-ID: <wold3g5ww63cwqo7rlwevqcpmlen3fl3lbtbq3qrmveoh2hale@e7carkmumnub>
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2024 11:55:10 -0500
From: John Groves <John@...ves.net>
To: Dongsheng Yang <dongsheng.yang@...ystack.cn>
Cc: Gregory Price <gregory.price@...verge.com>, 
	Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@...el.com>, axboe@...nel.dk, linux-block@...r.kernel.org, 
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, linux-cxl@...r.kernel.org, nvdimm@...ts.linux.dev
Subject: Re: [PATCH RFC 0/7] block: Introduce CBD (CXL Block Device)

On 24/04/28 01:47PM, Dongsheng Yang wrote:
> 
> 
> 在 2024/4/27 星期六 上午 12:14, Gregory Price 写道:
> > On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 10:53:43PM +0800, Dongsheng Yang wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 在 2024/4/26 星期五 下午 9:48, Gregory Price 写道:
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > In (5) of the cover letter, I mentioned that cbd addresses cache coherence
> > > at the software level:
> > > 
> > > (5) How do blkdev and backend interact through the channel?
> > > 	a) For reader side, before reading the data, if the data in this channel
> > > may be modified by the other party, then I need to flush the cache before
> > > reading to ensure that I get the latest data. For example, the blkdev needs
> > > to flush the cache before obtaining compr_head because compr_head will be
> > > updated by the backend handler.
> > > 	b) For writter side, if the written information will be read by others,
> > > then after writing, I need to flush the cache to let the other party see it
> > > immediately. For example, after blkdev submits cbd_se, it needs to update
> > > cmd_head to let the handler have a new cbd_se. Therefore, after updating
> > > cmd_head, I need to flush the cache to let the backend see it.
> > > 
> > 
> > Flushing the cache is insufficient.  All that cache flushing guarantees
> > is that the memory has left the writer's CPU cache.  There are potentially
> > many write buffers between the CPU and the actual backing media that the
> > CPU has no visibility of and cannot pierce through to force a full
> > guaranteed flush back to the media.
> > 
> > for example:
> > 
> > memcpy(some_cacheline, data, 64);
> > mfence();
> > 
> > Will not guarantee that after mfence() completes that the remote host
> > will have visibility of the data.  mfence() does not guarantee a full
> > flush back down to the device, it only guarantees it has been pushed out
> > of the CPU's cache.
> > 
> > similarly:
> > 
> > memcpy(some_cacheline, data, 64);
> > mfence();
> > memcpy(some_other_cacheline, data, 64);
> > mfence()
> > 
> > Will not guarantee that some_cacheline reaches the backing media prior
> > to some_other_cacheline, as there is no guarantee of write-ordering in
> > CXL controllers (with the exception of writes to the same cacheline).
> > 
> > So this statement:
> > 
> > > I need to flush the cache to let the other party see it immediately.
> > 
> > Is misleading.  They will not see is "immediately", they will see it
> > "eventually at some completely unknowable time in the future".
> 
> This is indeed one of the issues I wanted to discuss at the RFC stage. Thank
> you for pointing it out.
> 
> In my opinion, using "nvdimm_flush" might be one way to address this issue,
> but it seems to flush the entire nd_region, which might be too heavy.
> Moreover, it only applies to non-volatile memory.
> 
> This should be a general problem for cxl shared memory. In theory, FAMFS
> should also encounter this issue.
> 
> Gregory, John, and Dan, Any suggestion about it?
> 
> Thanx a lot
> > 
> > ~Gregory
> > 

Hi Dongsheng,

Gregory is right about the uncertainty around "clflush" operations, but
let me drill in a bit further.

Say you copy a payload into a "bucket" in a queue and then update an
index in a metadata structure; I'm thinking of the standard producer/
consumer queuing model here, with one index mutated by the producer and
the other mutated by the consumer. 

(I have not reviewed your queueing code, but you *must* be using this
model - things like linked-lists won't work in shared memory without 
shared locks/atomics.)

Normal logic says that you should clflush the payload before updating
the index, then update and clflush the index.

But we still observe in non-cache-coherent shared memory that the payload 
may become valid *after* the clflush of the queue index.

The famfs user space has a program called pcq.c, which implements a
producer/consumer queue in a pair of famfs files. The only way to 
currently guarantee a valid read of a payload is to use sequence numbers 
and checksums on payloads.  We do observe mismatches with actual shared 
memory, and the recovery is to clflush and re-read the payload from the 
client side. (Aside: These file pairs theoretically might work for CBD 
queues.)

Anoter side note: it would be super-helpful if the CPU gave us an explicit 
invalidate rather than just clflush, which will write-back before 
invalidating *if* the cache line is marked as dirty, even when software
knows this should not happen.

Note that CXL 3.1 provides a way to guarantee that stuff that should not
be written back can't be written back: read-only mappings. This one of
the features I got into the spec; using this requires CXL 3.1 DCD, and 
would require two DCD allocations (i.e. two tagged-capacity dax devices - 
one writable by the server and one by the client).

Just to make things slightly gnarlier, the MESI cache coherency protocol
allows a CPU to speculatively convert a line from exclusive to modified,
meaning it's not clear as of now whether "occasional" clean write-backs
can be avoided. Meaning those read-only mappings may be more important
than one might think. (Clean write-backs basically make it
impossible for software to manage cache coherency.)

Keep in mind that I don't think anybody has cxl 3 devices or CPUs yet, and 
shared memory is not explicitly legal in cxl 2, so there are things a cpu 
could do (or not do) in a cxl 2 environment that are not illegal because 
they should not be observable in a no-shared-memory environment.

CBD is interesting work, though for some of the reasons above I'm somewhat
skeptical of shared memory as an IPC mechanism.

Regards,
John

Powered by blists - more mailing lists