Message-ID: <6902de65-a487-1fc4-dd9a-598c6d6275f4@huaweicloud.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 10:16:16 +0200
From: Hernan Ponce de Leon <hernan.poncedeleon@...weicloud.com>
To: Jonas Oberhauser <jonas.oberhauser@...weicloud.com>,
 Andrea Parri <parri.andrea@...il.com>
Cc: Alan Stern <stern@...land.harvard.edu>,
 "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@...nel.org>, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
 linux-arch@...r.kernel.org, kernel-team@...a.com, boqun.feng@...il.com,
 j.alglave@....ac.uk, luc.maranget@...ia.fr,
 Joel Fernandes <joel@...lfernandes.org>
Subject: Re: LKMM: Making RMW barriers explicit

On 5/23/2024 10:30 PM, Jonas Oberhauser wrote:
> 
> 
> Am 5/23/2024 um 6:35 PM schrieb Andrea Parri:
>>> I would phrase it more extreme: I want to get rid of the unnecessary
>>> non-standard parts of the herd representation.
>>
>> Please indulge the thought that what might appear to be "non-standard"
>> to one or one's community might appear differently to others.
> 
> Certainly. And of course, the formalization of the LKMM doesn't have to 
> be optimized for the WMM community, even though I suspect that they (and 
> possibly the tools they develop) are the main direct consumers of the 
> formalization.
> 
>> Continuing with the example above, I'm pretty sure your "standard" and
>> simple idea of mb-reads and mb-writes, or even "unsuccessful" mb-reads
>> will turn up the nose of many kernel developers... 
> 
> I'm not sure how true that is. Firstly I'm not sure how many kernel 
> developers really read the formalization and try to see what it does, 
> rather than relying on tools to gain an intuition of what's going on.
> 
> But let's say a kernel developer wants to make sure that their intuition 
> of how cmpxchg works is matched by the formal model, e.g., they want to 
> double check that the formal model is correct
> after they got some unexpected results in a herd7 litmus test.
> 
> How would they go about it today? The only way is to read the OCaml 
> source code, because there's no other code that obviously defines the 
> behavior. At best, they would read
> 
> atomic_cmpxchg_acquire(X,V,W) __cmpxchg{acquire}(X,V,W)
> atomic_cmpxchg_release(X,V,W) __cmpxchg{release}(X,V,W)
> atomic_cmpxchg(X,V,W) __cmpxchg{mb}(X,V,W)
> 
> see the Acquire, Release, and Mb references in the model, and think "ok, 
> so '__cmpxchg{acquire}' means I get an Acquire tag in the success case 
> which gives acq_po ordering, '__cmpxchg{release}' means I get a Release 
> tag in the success case which gives po_rel ordering. Therefore 
> '__cmpxchg{mb}' must give me an Mb tag in the success case. That would 
> give me mb ordering, but not between the store and subsequent 
> operations, and that's just wrong."
> 
> But of course this "understanding by analogy" is broken, because there's 
> a bunch of special OCaml match expressions in herd that look only for 
> release or mb and just give totally different behavior for that one 
> case. Every other tag behaves exactly the same way.
> 
> At worst they wouldn't even guess that this only is the success ordering 
> (that's definitely what happened to us in the weak memory model 
> community, but we don't matter for this argument).
> 
> A better situation would be to do something like this:
> 
>                                         (*success*)(*fail*)
> atomic_cmpxchg_acquire(X,V,W) __cmpxchg {acquire}  {once} (X,V,W)
> atomic_cmpxchg_release(X,V,W) __cmpxchg {release}  {once} (X,V,W)
> atomic_cmpxchg(X,V,W)         __cmpxchg {mb}       {once} (X,V,W)

I also think this is the best option. We could change the internal 
representation of __cmpxchg in herd7 to have two memory orders (*) 
similar to the current internal representation of C11 CAS and get the 
memory order to be used for the success/fail case from the .def instead 
of having this hardcoded in the code.

(*) Not to be confused to how LKMM sees a CAS instruction.

Hernan

> 
> and being explicit in the model about what the Mb tag does:
> 
>       | [M];fencerel(Mb);[M] (* smp_mb() and operations with Mb ordering 
> such as cmpxchg() *)
>       | [M];po;[R & Mb] (* reads with an Mb tag - coming from full fence 
> rmws - are ordered as-if there was an smp_mb() right before the read *)
>       | [W & Mb];po;[M] (* correspondingly, writes with an Mb tag are 
> ordered as-if there was an smp_mb() right after the write *)
> 
> And suddenly you can read the model and map it 1:1 to the intuition that 
> you can treat a successful cmpxchg() (or an xchg() etc.) as-if it was 
> enclosed by smp_mb().
> 
> There doesn't need to be a real fence.
> 
> 
>> The current repre-
>> sentation for xchg() was described in the ASPLOS'18 work
> 
> Do you mean the one example in Table 3?
> What about cmpxchg() or cmpxchg_acquire()?
> 
>> But that's not the point, "standards" can change and certainly kernels
>> and tools do.  My remark was more to point out that you're not getting
>> rid of anything..., 
> 
> We're definitely getting rid of some lines in herd7, that have been 
> added solely for dealing with this specific case of LKMM.
> 
> For example, there's some code looking like this (for a memory ordering 
> tag `a`)
> 
>                  (match a with ["release"] -> a |  _ -> a_once)
> 
> which specifically refers to the release tag in LKMM and we can turn 
> that into
> 
>                  a
> 
> with no more reference to any LKMM tags. Of course, this is not the 
> Linux community's problem, just the herd (and others who want to use the 
> literal cat file of LKMM) maintainers who have to deal with it.
> 
> And imagine that at some point you want to add another tag to the linux 
> kernel - like for example for 'accessing an atomic in initialization 
> code, so that the compiler can do optimizations like merge a bunch of 
> bitwise operations'. Let's call it 'init.
> 
> What will be the behavior of
> 
> WRITE_INIT(X,V) __store{init}(X,V);
> 
> with the current herd7? Honestly I have no clue, because there might be a
> 
>                  (match a with ["release"] -> a |  _ -> a_once)
> 
> somewhere that will turn this 'init into 'once. We'd have to comb the 
> herd7 codebase to know for sure (or hope that our experiments are 
> sufficiently thorough to catch all cases).
> 
>  >you're simply proposing a different representation
> 
> I wouldn't phrase it like that, since it's a representation many people 
> familiar with WMM would expect, but admittedly that doesn't have to be 
> the deciding factor.
> 
>> asking kernel developers & maintainers to "deal with it"
> 
> Deal with what, no longer having to learn OCaml to be sure that the 
> LKMM's formal definition matches the description in memory_barriers.txt?
> Otherwise, I don't see anything that changes for the worse.
> With the change, people need to think for a few seconds to see that the 
> explicit rules in the .cat file are a formalization of "treat xchg() as 
> if it had smp_mb() before and after".
> Without the change, they need to read an OCaml codebase to see that is 
> meant by
> 
> atomic_xchg(X,V,W) __xchg{mb}(X,V,W)
> 
> So I don't see any downsides.
> 
> 
> I would also support making the representation explicit in the .def 
> files instead, with something like
> 
> cmp_xchg(x,e,v) = { if (*x==e) { smp_mb(); int r = 
> __cmp_xchg{once}(x,e,v) ; smp_mb(); return r } else { __read{once}(x) } }
> 
> Then you get to keep the representation.
> Without knowing herd's internals, I have no idea of how to seriously 
> specify a meta language so that herd could effectively and efficiently 
> deal with it in general. But one could at least envision some specific 
> syntax for cmpxchg with a code sequence for the failure case and a code 
> sequence for the success case.
> 
> Personally I don't prefer this option, firstly because I don't see a 
> good reason for the Linux community to go their own way here. I don't 
> think there's really much of a problem with saying "this is the 
> intuition; this is how we formalize it" and for the two not to be 
> completely identical. It happens all the time, and in this case the gap 
> between "we formalize it by really having two smp_mb() appear in the 
> graph if it's successful" and "we formalize it by providing the same 
> ordering that the smp_mb() would have if it was there" isn't big.
> Especially for those kernel people who have enough motivation to 
> actually deep dive into the formalization in the first place. But it 
> makes it a lot more accessible for the WMM community, which can only 
> benefit LKMM.
> 
> And secondly because people will probably mostly focus on the .cat file, 
> which means that it's still a bit of a booby trap to put something so 
> important (and perhaps surprising) into the .def file, but at least one 
> that is in the open for people who are more careful and also read the 
> .def file.
> 
>  > I am looking forward to something more than "because we can".
> 
> - it makes it easier to maintain the LKMM in the future, because you 
> don't have to work around hidden transformations inside herd7
> - it makes implicit behavior explicit
> - it makes it easier to understand that the formalization matches the 
> intention
> - it makes it easier to learn the LKMM from the formalization without 
> having to cross-reference every bit with the informal documentation to 
> avoid misunderstandings
> 
> 
> Have a good time,
>    jonas
> 
> 
> 

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