Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2024 09:46:45 +0000
From: Benno Lossin <benno.lossin@...ton.me>
To: Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@...il.com>
Cc: Miguel Ojeda <miguel.ojeda.sandonis@...il.com>, Gary Guo <gary@...yguo.net>, rust-for-linux@...r.kernel.org, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, linux-arch@...r.kernel.org, llvm@...ts.linux.dev, Miguel Ojeda <ojeda@...nel.org>, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor@...il.com>, Wedson Almeida Filho <wedsonaf@...il.com>, Björn Roy Baron <bjorn3_gh@...tonmail.com>, Andreas Hindborg <a.hindborg@...sung.com>, Alice Ryhl <aliceryhl@...gle.com>, Alan Stern <stern@...land.harvard.edu>, Andrea Parri <parri.andrea@...il.com>, Will Deacon <will@...nel.org>, Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>, Nicholas Piggin <npiggin@...il.com>, David Howells <dhowells@...hat.com>, Jade Alglave <j.alglave@....ac.uk>, Luc Maranget <luc.maranget@...ia.fr>, "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@...nel.org>, Akira Yokosawa <akiyks@...il.com>, Daniel Lustig <dlustig@...dia.com>, Joel Fernandes <joel@...lfernandes.org>, Nathan Chancellor <nathan@...nel.org>, Nick Desaulniers <ndesaulniers@...gle.com>,
	kent.overstreet@...il.com, Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>, elver@...gle.com, Mark Rutland <mark.rutland@....com>, Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>, Ingo Molnar <mingo@...hat.com>, Borislav Petkov <bp@...en8.de>, Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@...ux.intel.com>, x86@...nel.org, "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@...or.com>, Catalin Marinas <catalin.marinas@....com>, torvalds@...ux-foundation.org, linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org, linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org, Trevor Gross <tmgross@...ch.edu>, dakr@...hat.com
Subject: Re: [RFC 2/2] rust: sync: Add atomic support

On 16.06.24 00:12, Boqun Feng wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 07:09:30AM +0000, Benno Lossin wrote:
>> On 15.06.24 03:33, Boqun Feng wrote:
>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 09:22:24PM +0000, Benno Lossin wrote:
>>>> On 14.06.24 16:33, Boqun Feng wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:59:58AM +0200, Miguel Ojeda wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 13, 2024 at 9:05 PM Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@...il.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does this make sense?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Implementation-wise, if you think it is simpler or more clear/elegant
>>>>>> to have the extra lower level layer, then that sounds fine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, I was mainly talking about what we would eventually expose to
>>>>>> users, i.e. do we want to provide `Atomic<T>` to begin with? If yes,
>>>>>
>>>>> The truth is I don't know ;-) I don't have much data on which one is
>>>>> better. Personally, I think AtomicI32 and AtomicI64 make the users have
>>>>> to think about size, alignment, etc, and I think that's important for
>>>>> atomic users and people who review their code, because before one uses
>>>>> atomics, one should ask themselves: why don't I use a lock? Atomics
>>>>> provide the ablities to do low level stuffs and when doing low level
>>>>> stuffs, you want to be more explicit than ergonomic.
>>>>
>>>> How would this be different with `Atomic<i32>` and `Atomic<i64>`? Just
>>>
>>> The difference is that with Atomic{I32,I64} APIs, one has to choose (and
>>> think about) the size when using atomics, and cannot leave that option
>>> open. It's somewhere unconvenient, but as I said, atomics variables are
>>> different. For example, if someone is going to implement a reference
>>> counter struct, they can define as follow:
>>>
>>> 	struct Refcount<T> {
>>> 	    refcount: AtomicI32,
>>> 	    data: UnsafeCell<T>
>>> 	}
>>>
>>> but with atomic generic, people can leave that option open and do:
>>>
>>> 	struct Refcount<R, T> {
>>> 	    refcount: Atomic<R>,
>>> 	    data: UnsafeCell<T>
>>> 	}
>>>
>>> while it provides configurable options for experienced users, but it
>>> also provides opportunities for sub-optimal types, e.g. Refcount<u8, T>:
>>> on ll/sc architectures, because `data` and `refcount` can be in the same
>>> machine-word, the accesses of `refcount` are affected by the accesses of
>>> `data`.
>>
>> I think this is a non-issue. We have two options of counteracting this:
>> 1. We can just point this out in reviews and force people to use
>>    `Atomic<T>` with a concrete type. In cases where there really is the
>>    need to be generic, we can have it.
>> 2. We can add a private trait in the bounds for the generic, nobody
>>    outside of the module can access it and thus they need to use a
>>    concrete type:
>>
>>         // needs a better name
>>         trait Integer {}
>>         impl Integer for i32 {}
>>         impl Integer for i64 {}
>>
>>         pub struct Atomic<T: Integer> {
>>             /* ... */
>>         }
>>
>> And then in the other module, you can't do this (with compiler error):
>>
>>         pub struct Refcount<R: Integer, T> {
>>                             // ^^^^^^^ not found in this scope
>>                             // note: trait `crate::atomic::Integer` exists but is inaccessible
>>             refcount: Atomic<R>,
>>             data: UnsafeCell<T>,
>>         }
>>
>> I think that we can start with approach 2 and if we find a use-case
>> where generics are really unavoidable, we can either put it in the same
>> module as `Atomic<T>`, or change the access of `Integer`.
>>
> 
> What's the issue of having AtomicI32 and AtomicI64 first then? We don't
> need to do 1 or 2 until the real users show up.

Generics allow you to avoid code duplication (I don't think that you
want to create the `Atomic{I32,I64}` types via macros...). We would have
to do a lot of refactoring, when we want to introduce it. I don't see
the harm of introducing generics from the get-go.

> And I'd like also to point out that there are a few more trait bound
> designs needed for Atomic<T>, for example, Atomic<u32> and Atomic<i32>
> have different sets of API (no inc_unless_negative() for u32).

Sure, just like Gary said, you can just do:

    impl Atomic<i32> {
        pub fn inc_unless_negative(&self, ordering: Ordering) -> bool;
    }

Or add a `HasNegative` trait.

> Don't make me wrong, I have no doubt we can handle this in the type
> system, but given the design work need, won't it make sense that we take
> baby steps on this? We can first introduce AtomicI32 and AtomicI64 which
> already have real users, and then if there are some values of generic
> atomics, we introduce them and have proper discussion on design.

I don't understand this point, why can't we put in the effort for a good
design? AFAIK we normally spend considerable time to get the API right
and I think in this case it would include making it generic.

> To me, it's perfectly fine that Atomic{I32,I64} co-exist with Atomic<T>.
> What's the downside? A bit specific example would help me understand
> the real concern here.

I don't like that, why have two ways of doing the same thing? People
will be confused whether they should use `AtomicI32` vs `Atomic<i32>`...

---
Cheers,
Benno

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