Message-ID: <Zm7_XWe6ciy1yN-h@Boquns-Mac-mini.home>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2024 08:06:05 -0700
From: Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@...il.com>
To: Gary Guo <gary@...yguo.net>
Cc: John Hubbard <jhubbard@...dia.com>,
	Miguel Ojeda <miguel.ojeda.sandonis@...il.com>,
	rust-for-linux@...r.kernel.org, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
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 Borislav Petkov <bp@...en8.de>,
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 linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org,	linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org,
 Trevor Gross <tmgross@...ch.edu>,	dakr@...hat.com
Subject: Re: [RFC 2/2] rust: sync: Add atomic support

On Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 03:51:45PM +0100, Gary Guo wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jun 2024 19:39:27 -0700
> Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@...il.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 06:28:00PM -0700, John Hubbard wrote:
> > > On 6/14/24 6:24 PM, Boqun Feng wrote:  
> > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 06:03:37PM -0700, John Hubbard wrote:  
> > > > > On 6/14/24 2:59 AM, Miguel Ojeda wrote:  
> > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2024 at 9:05 PM Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@...il.com> wrote:  
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Does this make sense?  
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Implementation-wise, if you think it is simpler or more clear/elegant
> > > > > > to have the extra lower level layer, then that sounds fine.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > However, I was mainly talking about what we would eventually expose to
> > > > > > users, i.e. do we want to provide `Atomic<T>` to begin with? If yes,
> > > > > > then we could make the lower layer private already.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > We can defer that extra layer/work if needed even if we go for
> > > > > > `Atomic<T>`, but it would be nice to understand if we have consensus
> > > > > > for an eventual user-facing API, or if someone has any other opinion
> > > > > > or concerns on one vs. the other.  
> > > > > 
> > > > > Well, here's one:
> > > > > 
> > > > > The reason that we have things like atomic64_read() in the C code is
> > > > > because C doesn't have generics.
> > > > > 
> > > > > In Rust, we should simply move directly to Atomic<T>, as there are,
> > > > > after all, associated benefits. And it's very easy to see the connection  
> > > > 
> > > > What are the associated benefits you are referring to? Rust std doesn't
> > > > use Atomic<T>, that somewhat proves that we don't need it.  
> > > Just the stock things that a generic provides: less duplicated code,  
> > 
> > It's still a bit handwavy, sorry.
> > 
> > Admittedly, I haven't looked into too much Rust concurrent code, maybe
> > it's even true for C code ;-) So I took a look at the crate that Gary
> > mentioned (the one provides generic atomic APIs):
> > 
> > 	https://crates.io/crates/atomic
> > 
> > there's a "Dependent" tab where you can see the other crates that
> > depends on it. With a quick look, I haven't found any Rust concurrent
> > project I'm aware of (no crossbeam, no tokio, no futures). On the other
> > hand, there is a non-generic based atomic library:
> > 
> > 	https://crates.io/crates/portable-atomic
> > 
> > which has more projects depend on it, and there are some Rust concurrent
> > projects that I'm aware of: futures, async-task etc. Note that people
> > can get the non-generic based atomic API from Rust std library, and
> > the "portable-atomic" crate is only 2-year old, while "atomic" crate is
> > 8-year old.
> > 
> > More interestingly, the same author of "atomic" crate, who is an expert
> > in concurrent areas, has another project (there are a lot projects from
> > the author, but this is the one I'm mostly aware of) "parking_lot",
> > which "provides implementations of Mutex, RwLock, Condvar and Once that
> > are smaller, faster and more flexible than those in the Rust standard
> > library, as well as a ReentrantMutex type which supports recursive
> > locking.", and it doesn't use the "atomic" crate either.
> 
> Note that crossbeam's AtomicCell is also generic, and crossbeam is used
> by tons of crates. As Miguel mentioned, I think it's very likely that in
> the future we want be able to do atomics on new types (e.g. for
> seqlocks perhaps). We probably don't need the non-lock-free fallback of

Good, another design bit, thank you!

What's our overall idea on sub-word types, like Atomic<u8> and
Atomic<u16>, do we plan to say no to them, or they could have a limited
APIs? IIUC, some operations on them are relatively sub-optimal on some
architectures, supporting the same set of API as i32 and i64 is probably
a bad idea.

Another thing in my mind is making `Atomic<T>`

	pub struct Atomic<T: Send + ...> { ... }

so that `Atomic<T>` will always be `Sync`, because quite frankly, an
atomic type that cannot `Sync` is pointless.

Regards,
Boqun

> crossbeam's AtomicCell, but the lock-free subset with newtype support
> is desirable.
> 
> People in general don't use the `atomic` crate because it provides no
> additional feature compared to the standard library. But it doesn't
> really mean that the standard library's atomic design is good.
> 
> People decided to use AtomicT and NonZeroT instead of Atomic<T> or
> NonZero<T> long time ago, but many now thinks the decision was bad.
> Introduction of NonZero<T> is a good example of it. NonZeroT are now
> all type aliases of NonZero<T>.
> 
> I also don't see any downside in using generics. We can provide type
> aliases so people can use `AtomicI32` and `AtomicI64` when they want
> their code to be compatible with userspace Rust can still do so.
> 
> `Atomic<i32>` is also just aesthetically better than `AtomicI32` IMO.
> When all other types look like `NonZero<i32>`, `Wrapping<i32>`, I don't
> think we should have `AtomicI32` just because "it's done this way in
> Rust std". Our alloc already deviates a lot from Rust std.
> 
> Best,
> Gary

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