Message-ID: <ef0e11c5-13cf-4d47-a277-41da317be165@redhat.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 19:00:53 +0200
From: David Hildenbrand <david@...hat.com>
To: Lorenzo Stoakes <lorenzo.stoakes@...cle.com>
Cc: Vlastimil Babka <vbabka@...e.cz>,
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 Richard Henderson <richard.henderson@...aro.org>,
 Ivan Kokshaysky <ink@...assic.park.msu.ru>, Matt Turner
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 John Hubbard <jhubbard@...dia.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 2/5] mm: add PTE_MARKER_GUARD PTE marker

On 21.10.24 18:51, Lorenzo Stoakes wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 06:44:04PM +0200, David Hildenbrand wrote:
>> On 21.10.24 18:23, Lorenzo Stoakes wrote:
>>> On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 06:00:20PM +0200, David Hildenbrand wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>>>>
>>>>> To summarise for on-list:
>>>>>
>>>>> * MADV_FREE, while ostensibly being a 'lazy free' mechanism, has the
>>>>>      ability to be 'cancelled' if you write to the memory. Also, after the
>>>>>      freeing is complete, you can write to the memory to reuse it, the mapping
>>>>>      is still there.
>>>>>
>>>>> * For hardware poison markers it makes sense to drop them as you're
>>>>>      effectively saying 'I am done with this range that is now unbacked and
>>>>>      expect to get an empty page should I use it now'. UFFD WP I am not sure
>>>>>      about but presumably also fine.
>>>>>
>>>>> * However, guard pages are different - if you 'cancel' and you are left
>>>>>      with a block of memory allocated to you by a pthread or userland
>>>>>      allocator implementation, you don't want to then no longer be protected
>>>>>      from overrunning into other thread memory.
>>>>
>>>> Agreed. What happens on MADV_DONTNEED/MADV_FREE on guard pages? Ignored or
>>>> error? It sounds like a usage "error" to me (in contrast to munmap()).
>>>
>>> It's ignored, no errror. On MADV_DONTNEED we already left the guard pages in
>>> place, from v3 we will do the same for MADV_FREE.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure I'd say it's an error per se, as somebody might have a use case
>>> where they want to zap over a range but keep guard pages, perhaps an allocator
>>> or something?
>>
>> Hm, not sure I see use for that.
>>
>> Staring at madvise_walk_vmas(), we return ENOMEM on VMA holes, but would
>> process PROT_NONE. So current behavior is at least consistent with PROT_NONE
>> handling (where something could be mapped, though).
> 
> Err, the handling of holes is terrible, yes we return ENOMEM, but we _carry out
> the whole procedure_ then return an error, an error _indistinguishable from an
> error arising from any of the individual parts_.
> 
> Which is just, awful.

Yes, absolutely. I don't know why we decided to continue. And why we 
return ENOMEM ...

> 
>>
>> No strong opinion.
> 
> Well you used up your strong opinion on the naming ;)

He, and I am out of energy for this year ;)

In retrospective, "install or remove a guard PTE" is just much better 
than anything else ...

So I should never have been mislead to suggest poison/unpoison as a 
replacement for poison/remedy :P

> 
>>
>>>
>>> Also the existing logic is that existing markers (HW poison, uffd-simulated HW
>>> poison, uffd wp marker) are retained and no error raised on MADV_DONTNEED, and
>>> no error on MADV_FREE either, so it'd be consistent with existing behaviour.
>>
>>
>> HW poison / uffd-simulated HW poison are expected to be zapped: it's just
>> like a mapped page with HWPOISON. So that is correct.
> 
> Well, poison is _not_ zapped on MADV_DONTNEED but _is_ on MADV_FREE :) anyway, I

Huh?

madvise_dontneed_single_vma()->zap_page_range_single(details=NULL)->unmap_single_vma(details=NULL) 
... zap_pte_range()

} else if (is_hwpoison_entry(entry) ||
	   is_poisoned_swp_entry(entry)) {
	if (!should_zap_cows(details))
		continue;
	...

Should just zap them.

What am I missing?

> mean the MADV flags are a confusing mess generally, as per Vlasta's comments
> which to begin with I strongly disagreed with then, discussing further, realsed
> that no this is just a bit insane and had driven _me_ insane.
> 
>>
>> UFFD-WP behavior is ... weird. Would not expect MADV_DONTNEED to zap uffd-wp
>> entries.
>>
>>>
>>> Also semantically you are achieving what the calls expect you are freeing the
>>> ranges since the guard page regions are unbacked so are already freed... so yeah
>>> I don't think an error really makes sense here.
>>
>> I you compare it to a VMA hole, it make sense to fail. If we treat it like
>> PROT_NONE, it make sense to skip them.
>>
>>>
>>> We might also be limiting use cases by assuming they might _only_ be used for
>>> allocators and such.
>>
>> I don't buy that as an argument, sorry :)
>>
>> "Let's map the kernel writable into all user space because otherwise we
>> might be limiting use cases"
> 
> That's a great idea! Patch series incoming, 1st April 2025... :>)

:) Just flip the bit on x86 and we're done!

>>
>>
>> :P
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> David / dhildenb
>>
> 
> Overall I think just always leaving in place except on remedy err sorry sorry
> unpoison and munmap and not returning an error if encountered elsewhere (other
> than, of course, GUP) is the right way forward and most in line with user
> expectation and practical usage.


Fine with me, make sure to document that is behaves like a PROT_NONE 
VMA, not like a memory hole, except when something would trigger a fault 
(GUP etc).


-- 
Cheers,

David / dhildenb

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