Message-ID: <CAGsJ_4zLNA-1+3j4snNLiujT3NLcmKEVFA4+eD1Sk1bOkqAGYw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2024 05:40:32 +0800
From: Barry Song <21cnbao@...il.com>
To: Usama Arif <usamaarif642@...il.com>
Cc: Yosry Ahmed <yosryahmed@...gle.com>, Nhat Pham <nphamcs@...il.com>, akpm@...ux-foundation.org, 
	linux-mm@...ck.org, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, 
	Barry Song <v-songbaohua@...o.com>, Chengming Zhou <chengming.zhou@...ux.dev>, 
	Johannes Weiner <hannes@...xchg.org>, David Hildenbrand <david@...hat.com>, Hugh Dickins <hughd@...gle.com>, 
	Matthew Wilcox <willy@...radead.org>, Shakeel Butt <shakeel.butt@...ux.dev>, 
	Andi Kleen <ak@...ux.intel.com>, Baolin Wang <baolin.wang@...ux.alibaba.com>, 
	Chris Li <chrisl@...nel.org>, "Huang, Ying" <ying.huang@...el.com>, 
	Kairui Song <kasong@...cent.com>, Ryan Roberts <ryan.roberts@....com>, joshua.hahnjy@...il.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH RFC] mm: count zeromap read and set for swapout and swapin

On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 5:24 AM Usama Arif <usamaarif642@...il.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 28/10/2024 21:15, Barry Song wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 4:51 AM Usama Arif <usamaarif642@...il.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 28/10/2024 20:42, Barry Song wrote:
> >>> On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 4:00 AM Usama Arif <usamaarif642@...il.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 28/10/2024 19:54, Barry Song wrote:
> >>>>> On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 1:20 AM Usama Arif <usamaarif642@...il.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 28/10/2024 17:08, Yosry Ahmed wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 28, 2024 at 10:00 AM Usama Arif <usamaarif642@...il.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 28/10/2024 16:33, Nhat Pham wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 28, 2024 at 5:23 AM Usama Arif <usamaarif642@...il.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I wonder if instead of having counters, it might be better to keep track
> >>>>>>>>>> of the number of zeropages currently stored in zeromap, similar to how
> >>>>>>>>>> zswap_same_filled_pages did it. It will be more complicated then this
> >>>>>>>>>> patch, but would give more insight of the current state of the system.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Joshua (in CC) was going to have a look at that.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I don't think one can substitute for the other.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Yes agreed, they have separate uses and provide different information, but
> >>>>>>>> maybe wasteful to have both types of counters? They are counters so maybe
> >>>>>>>> dont consume too much resources but I think we should still think about
> >>>>>>>> it..
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Not for or against here, but I would say that statement is debatable
> >>>>>>> at best for memcg stats :)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Each new counter consumes 2 longs per-memcg per-CPU (see
> >>>>>>> memcg_vmstats_percpu), about 16 bytes, which is not a lot but it can
> >>>>>>> quickly add up with a large number of CPUs/memcgs/stats.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Also, when flushing the stats we iterate all of them to propagate
> >>>>>>> updates from per-CPU counters. This is already a slowpath so adding
> >>>>>>> one stat is not a big deal, but again because we iterate all stats on
> >>>>>>> multiple CPUs (and sometimes on each node as well), the overall flush
> >>>>>>> latency becomes a concern sometimes.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> All of that is not to say we shouldn't add more memcg stats, but we
> >>>>>>> have to be mindful of the resources.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yes agreed! Plus the cost of incrementing similar counters (which ofcourse is
> >>>>>> also not much).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Not trying to block this patch in anyway. Just think its a good point
> >>>>>> to discuss here if we are ok with both types of counters. If its too wasteful
> >>>>>> then which one we should have.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Usama,
> >>>>> my point is that with all the below three counters:
> >>>>> 1. PSWPIN/PSWPOUT
> >>>>> 2. ZSWPIN/ZSWPOUT
> >>>>> 3. SWAPIN_SKIP/SWAPOUT_SKIP or (ZEROSWPIN, ZEROSWPOUT what ever)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Shouldn't we have been able to determine the portion of zeromap
> >>>>> swap indirectly?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hmm, I might be wrong, but I would have thought no?
> >>>>
> >>>> What if you swapout a zero folio, but then discard it?
> >>>> zeromap_swpout would be incremented, but zeromap_swapin would not.
> >>>
> >>> I understand. It looks like we have two issues to tackle:
> >>> 1. We shouldn't let zeromap swap in or out anything that vanishes into
> >>> a black hole
> >>> 2. We want to find out how much I/O/memory has been saved due to zeromap so far
> >>>
> >>> From my perspective, issue 1 requires a "fix", while issue 2 is more
> >>> of an optimization.
> >>
> >> Hmm I dont understand why point 1 would be an issue.
> >>
> >> If its discarded thats fine as far as I can see.
> >
> > it is fine to you and probably me who knows zeromap as well :-) but
> > any userspace code
> > as below might be entirely confused:
> >
> > p = malloc(1G);
> > write p to 0; or write part of p to 0
> > madv_pageout(p, 1g)
> > read p to swapin.
> >
> > The entire procedure used to involve 1GB of swap out and 1GB of swap in by any
> > means. Now, it has recorded 0 swaps counted.
> >
> > I don't expect userspace is as smart as you :-)
> >
> Ah I completely agree, we need to account for it in some metric. I probably
> misunderstood when you said "We shouldn't let zeromap swap in or out anything that
> vanishes into a black hole", by we should not have the zeromap optimization for those
> cases. What I guess you meant is we need to account for it in some metric.
>
> >>
> >> As a reference, memory.stat.zswapped != memory.stat.zswapout - memory.stat.zswapin.
> >> Because zswapped would take into account swapped out anon memory freed, MADV_FREE,
> >> shmem truncate, etc as Yosry said about zeromap, But zswapout and zswapin dont.
> >
> > I understand. However, I believe what we really need to focus on is
> > this: if we’ve
> > swapped out, for instance, 100GB in the past hour, how much of that 100GB is
> > zero? This information can help us assess the proportion of zero data in the
> > workload, along with the potential benefits that zeromap can provide for memory,
> > I/O space, or read/write operations. Additionally, having the second count
> > can enhance accuracy when considering MADV_DONTNEED, FREE, TRUNCATE,
> > and so on.
> >
> Yes completely agree!
>
> I think we can look into adding all three metrics, zeromap_swapped, zeromap_swpout,
> zeromap_swpin (or whatever name works).

It's great to reach an agreement. Let me work on some patches for it.

By the way, I recently had an idea: if we can conduct the zeromap check
earlier - for example - before allocating swap slots and pageout(), could
we completely eliminate swap slot occupation and allocation/release
for zeromap data? For example, we could use a special swap
entry value in the PTE to indicate zero content and directly fill it with
zeros when swapping back. We've observed that swap slot allocation and
freeing can consume a lot of CPU and slow down functions like
zap_pte_range and swap-in. If we can entirely skip these steps, it
could improve performance. However, I'm uncertain about the benefits we
would gain if we only have 1-2% zeromap data.

I'm just putting this idea out there to see if you're interested in moving
forward with it. :-)

>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I consider issue 1 to be more critical because, after observing a phone
> >>> running for some time, I've been able to roughly estimate the portion
> >>> zeromap can
> >>> help save using only PSWPOUT, ZSWPOUT, and SWAPOUT_SKIP, even without a
> >>> SWPIN counter. However, I agree that issue 2 still holds significant value
> >>> as a separate patch.
> >>>
> >

Thanks
Barry

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