Message-ID: <CAGsJ_4zRZFpJ0rWQ3XzspfSXN6xXN4eftCdL3xHPTqqYLUhQcA@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2024 06:11:27 +0800
From: Barry Song <21cnbao@...il.com>
To: Usama Arif <usamaarif642@...il.com>
Cc: Yosry Ahmed <yosryahmed@...gle.com>, Nhat Pham <nphamcs@...il.com>, akpm@...ux-foundation.org, 
	linux-mm@...ck.org, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, 
	Barry Song <v-songbaohua@...o.com>, Chengming Zhou <chengming.zhou@...ux.dev>, 
	Johannes Weiner <hannes@...xchg.org>, David Hildenbrand <david@...hat.com>, Hugh Dickins <hughd@...gle.com>, 
	Matthew Wilcox <willy@...radead.org>, Shakeel Butt <shakeel.butt@...ux.dev>, 
	Andi Kleen <ak@...ux.intel.com>, Baolin Wang <baolin.wang@...ux.alibaba.com>, 
	Chris Li <chrisl@...nel.org>, "Huang, Ying" <ying.huang@...el.com>, 
	Kairui Song <kasong@...cent.com>, Ryan Roberts <ryan.roberts@....com>, joshua.hahnjy@...il.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH RFC] mm: count zeromap read and set for swapout and swapin

On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 5:49 AM Usama Arif <usamaarif642@...il.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 28/10/2024 21:40, Barry Song wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 5:24 AM Usama Arif <usamaarif642@...il.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 28/10/2024 21:15, Barry Song wrote:
> >>> On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 4:51 AM Usama Arif <usamaarif642@...il.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 28/10/2024 20:42, Barry Song wrote:
> >>>>> On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 4:00 AM Usama Arif <usamaarif642@...il.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 28/10/2024 19:54, Barry Song wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 1:20 AM Usama Arif <usamaarif642@...il.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 28/10/2024 17:08, Yosry Ahmed wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 28, 2024 at 10:00 AM Usama Arif <usamaarif642@...il.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On 28/10/2024 16:33, Nhat Pham wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 28, 2024 at 5:23 AM Usama Arif <usamaarif642@...il.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder if instead of having counters, it might be better to keep track
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of the number of zeropages currently stored in zeromap, similar to how
> >>>>>>>>>>>> zswap_same_filled_pages did it. It will be more complicated then this
> >>>>>>>>>>>> patch, but would give more insight of the current state of the system.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Joshua (in CC) was going to have a look at that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't think one can substitute for the other.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Yes agreed, they have separate uses and provide different information, but
> >>>>>>>>>> maybe wasteful to have both types of counters? They are counters so maybe
> >>>>>>>>>> dont consume too much resources but I think we should still think about
> >>>>>>>>>> it..
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Not for or against here, but I would say that statement is debatable
> >>>>>>>>> at best for memcg stats :)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Each new counter consumes 2 longs per-memcg per-CPU (see
> >>>>>>>>> memcg_vmstats_percpu), about 16 bytes, which is not a lot but it can
> >>>>>>>>> quickly add up with a large number of CPUs/memcgs/stats.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Also, when flushing the stats we iterate all of them to propagate
> >>>>>>>>> updates from per-CPU counters. This is already a slowpath so adding
> >>>>>>>>> one stat is not a big deal, but again because we iterate all stats on
> >>>>>>>>> multiple CPUs (and sometimes on each node as well), the overall flush
> >>>>>>>>> latency becomes a concern sometimes.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> All of that is not to say we shouldn't add more memcg stats, but we
> >>>>>>>>> have to be mindful of the resources.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Yes agreed! Plus the cost of incrementing similar counters (which ofcourse is
> >>>>>>>> also not much).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Not trying to block this patch in anyway. Just think its a good point
> >>>>>>>> to discuss here if we are ok with both types of counters. If its too wasteful
> >>>>>>>> then which one we should have.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Usama,
> >>>>>>> my point is that with all the below three counters:
> >>>>>>> 1. PSWPIN/PSWPOUT
> >>>>>>> 2. ZSWPIN/ZSWPOUT
> >>>>>>> 3. SWAPIN_SKIP/SWAPOUT_SKIP or (ZEROSWPIN, ZEROSWPOUT what ever)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Shouldn't we have been able to determine the portion of zeromap
> >>>>>>> swap indirectly?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hmm, I might be wrong, but I would have thought no?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What if you swapout a zero folio, but then discard it?
> >>>>>> zeromap_swpout would be incremented, but zeromap_swapin would not.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I understand. It looks like we have two issues to tackle:
> >>>>> 1. We shouldn't let zeromap swap in or out anything that vanishes into
> >>>>> a black hole
> >>>>> 2. We want to find out how much I/O/memory has been saved due to zeromap so far
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From my perspective, issue 1 requires a "fix", while issue 2 is more
> >>>>> of an optimization.
> >>>>
> >>>> Hmm I dont understand why point 1 would be an issue.
> >>>>
> >>>> If its discarded thats fine as far as I can see.
> >>>
> >>> it is fine to you and probably me who knows zeromap as well :-) but
> >>> any userspace code
> >>> as below might be entirely confused:
> >>>
> >>> p = malloc(1G);
> >>> write p to 0; or write part of p to 0
> >>> madv_pageout(p, 1g)
> >>> read p to swapin.
> >>>
> >>> The entire procedure used to involve 1GB of swap out and 1GB of swap in by any
> >>> means. Now, it has recorded 0 swaps counted.
> >>>
> >>> I don't expect userspace is as smart as you :-)
> >>>
> >> Ah I completely agree, we need to account for it in some metric. I probably
> >> misunderstood when you said "We shouldn't let zeromap swap in or out anything that
> >> vanishes into a black hole", by we should not have the zeromap optimization for those
> >> cases. What I guess you meant is we need to account for it in some metric.
> >>
> >>>>
> >>>> As a reference, memory.stat.zswapped != memory.stat.zswapout - memory.stat.zswapin.
> >>>> Because zswapped would take into account swapped out anon memory freed, MADV_FREE,
> >>>> shmem truncate, etc as Yosry said about zeromap, But zswapout and zswapin dont.
> >>>
> >>> I understand. However, I believe what we really need to focus on is
> >>> this: if we’ve
> >>> swapped out, for instance, 100GB in the past hour, how much of that 100GB is
> >>> zero? This information can help us assess the proportion of zero data in the
> >>> workload, along with the potential benefits that zeromap can provide for memory,
> >>> I/O space, or read/write operations. Additionally, having the second count
> >>> can enhance accuracy when considering MADV_DONTNEED, FREE, TRUNCATE,
> >>> and so on.
> >>>
> >> Yes completely agree!
> >>
> >> I think we can look into adding all three metrics, zeromap_swapped, zeromap_swpout,
> >> zeromap_swpin (or whatever name works).
> >
> > It's great to reach an agreement. Let me work on some patches for it.
>
> Thanks!
>
> >
> > By the way, I recently had an idea: if we can conduct the zeromap check
> > earlier - for example - before allocating swap slots and pageout(), could
> > we completely eliminate swap slot occupation and allocation/release
> > for zeromap data? For example, we could use a special swap
> > entry value in the PTE to indicate zero content and directly fill it with
> > zeros when swapping back. We've observed that swap slot allocation and
> > freeing can consume a lot of CPU and slow down functions like
> > zap_pte_range and swap-in. If we can entirely skip these steps, it
> > could improve performance. However, I'm uncertain about the benefits we
> > would gain if we only have 1-2% zeromap data.
>
> If I remember correctly this was one of the ideas floated around in the
> initial version of the zeromap series, but it was evaluated as a lot more
> complicated to do than what the current zeromap code looks like. But I
> think its definitely worth looking into!

Sorry for the noise. I didn't review the initial discussion. But my feeling
is that it might be valuable considering the report from Zhiguo:

https://lore.kernel.org/linux-mm/20240805153639.1057-1-justinjiang@vivo.com/

In fact, our recent benchmark also indicates that swap free could account
for a significant portion in do_swap_page().

>
> >
> > I'm just putting this idea out there to see if you're interested in moving
> > forward with it. :-)
> >
> >>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I consider issue 1 to be more critical because, after observing a phone
> >>>>> running for some time, I've been able to roughly estimate the portion
> >>>>> zeromap can
> >>>>> help save using only PSWPOUT, ZSWPOUT, and SWAPOUT_SKIP, even without a
> >>>>> SWPIN counter. However, I agree that issue 2 still holds significant value
> >>>>> as a separate patch.
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >

Thanks
Barry

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