Message-ID: <10576437.nUPlyArG6x@lichtvoll.de>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2024 22:26:38 +0100
From: Martin Steigerwald <martin@...htvoll.de>
To: Kent Overstreet <kent.overstreet@...ux.dev>,
 Shuah Khan <skhan@...uxfoundation.org>
Cc: Michal Hocko <mhocko@...e.com>, Dave Chinner <david@...morbit.com>,
 Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>, Christoph Hellwig <hch@....de>,
 Yafang Shao <laoar.shao@...il.com>, jack@...e.cz,
 Christian Brauner <brauner@...nel.org>,
 Alexander Viro <viro@...iv.linux.org.uk>, Paul Moore <paul@...l-moore.com>,
 James Morris <jmorris@...ei.org>, "Serge E. Hallyn" <serge@...lyn.com>,
 linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org, linux-mm@...ck.org,
 linux-bcachefs@...r.kernel.org, linux-security-module@...r.kernel.org,
 linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, "conduct@...nel.org" <conduct@...nel.org>,
 Shuah Khan <skhan@...uxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 1/2 v2] bcachefs: do not use PF_MEMALLOC_NORECLAIM

Hi Shuah, hi everyone.

Shuah, I appreciate your effort to resolve the Code of Conduct issue.

Also I make no judgment about the technical matter at hand. Basically I do 
not even have a clear idea on what it is about. So I am just commenting on 
the Code of Conduct enforcement process:

Shuah Khan - 20.11.24, 23:21:06 MEZ:
> I didn't pick up on your desire to apologize after the discussion in
> our conversation.
> 
> Are you saying you will be happy to make amends with an apology after
> the discussion and debate?

Do you really think that power-playing Kent into submission by doing a 
public apology is doing anything good to resolve the issue at hand?

While it may not really compare to some of the wording Linus has used 
before having been convinced to change his behavior… I do not agree with 
the wording Kent has used. I certainly do not condone it.

But this forced public apology approach in my point of view is very likely 
just to cement the division instead of heal it. While I publicly disagreed 
with Kent before, I also publicly disagree with this kind of Code of 
Conduct enforcement. I have seen similar patterns within the Debian 
community and in my point of view this lead to the loss of several Debian 
developers who contributed a lot to the project while leaving behind 
frustration and unresolved conflict.

No amount of power play is going to resolve this. Just exercising 
authority is not doing any good in here. This needs mediation, not forced 
public humiliation.

To me, honestly written, this whole interaction feels a bit like I'd 
imagine children may be fighting over a toy. With a majority of the 
children grouping together to single out someone who does not appear to fit 
in at first glance. I mean no offense with that. This is just the impression 
I got so far. The whole interaction just does not remind me of respectful 
communication between adult human beings. I have seen it with myself… in 
situations where it was challenging for me to access what I learned, for 
whatever reason, I had been acting similarly to a child. So really no 
offense meant. This is just an impression I got and wanted to mirror back 
to you for your consideration.

I'd make three changes to the current approach regarding Kent's behavior:

1) Take it to private mediation.

2) Move it from mail to actually talking with one another. Resolving 
conflicts by mail exchange is hard. Maybe voice / video chat. Or meeting in 
person, in case it possible. In other words: *Talk to each other*! Mail is 
really very bad for things like that.

3) Assume good intentions!

And the best first step for everyone involved may just be: Take a deep 
breath and let it sit for a while. Maybe there is something to learn from 
this for everyone involved, including myself.

I have and claim no standing in kernel community. So take this for 
whatever it is worth for you.

Best,
-- 
Martin

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