Message-ID: <f35aa9a2-edac-4ada-b10b-8a560460d358@intel.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2025 08:04:49 -0800
From: Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@...el.com>
To: Kent Overstreet <kent.overstreet@...ux.dev>,
 Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@...ux.intel.com>
Cc: linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
 Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>, Ted Ts'o <tytso@....edu>,
 Christian Brauner <brauner@...nel.org>, "Darrick J. Wong"
 <djwong@...nel.org>, Matthew Wilcox <willy@...radead.org>,
 Al Viro <viro@...iv.linux.org.uk>, linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org,
 almaz.alexandrovich@...agon-software.com, ntfs3@...ts.linux.dev,
 miklos@...redi.hu, linux-bcachefs@...r.kernel.org, clm@...com,
 josef@...icpanda.com, dsterba@...e.com, linux-btrfs@...r.kernel.org,
 dhowells@...hat.com, jlayton@...nel.org, netfs@...ts.linux.dev
Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/7] Move prefaulting into write slow paths

On 1/29/25 23:44, Kent Overstreet wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2025 at 10:17:49AM -0800, Dave Hansen wrote:
>> tl;dr: The VFS and several filesystems have some suspect prefaulting
>> code. It is unnecessarily slow for the common case where a write's
>> source buffer is resident and does not need to be faulted in.
>>
>> Move these "prefaulting" operations to slow paths where they ensure
>> forward progress but they do not slow down the fast paths. This
>> optimizes the fast path to touch userspace once instead of twice.
>>
>> Also update somewhat dubious comments about the need for prefaulting.
>>
>> This has been very lightly tested. I have not tested any of the fs/
>> code explicitly.
> 
> Q: what is preventing us from posting code to the list that's been
> properly tested?
> 
> I just got another bcachefs patch series that blew up immediately when I
> threw it at my CI.
> 
> This is getting _utterly ridiculous_.

In this case, I started with a single patch for generic code that I knew
I could test. In fact, I even had the 9-year-old binary sitting on my
test box.

Dave Chinner suggested that I take the generic pattern go look a _bit_
more widely in the tree for a similar pattern. That search paid off, I
think. But I ended up touching corners of the tree I don't know well and
don't have test cases for.

> I built multiuser test infrastructure with a nice dashboard that anyone
> can use, and the only response I've gotten from the old guard is Ted
> jumping in every time I talk about it to say "no, we just don't want to
> rewrite our stuff on _your_ stuff!". Real helpful, that.

Sounds pretty cool! Is this something that I could have and should have
used to test the bcachefs patch?  I see some trees in here:

	https://evilpiepirate.org/~testdashboard/ci

But I'm not sure how to submit patches to it. Do you need to add users
manually? I wonder, though, how we could make it easier to find. I
didn't see anything Documentation/filesystems/bcachefs/ about this.

>>  1. Deadlock avoidance if the source and target are the same
>>     folios.
>>  2. To check the user address that copy_folio_from_iter_atomic()
>>     will touch because atomic user copies do not check the address.
>>  3. "Optimization"
>>
>> I'm not sure any of these are actually valid reasons.
>>
>> The "atomic" user copy functions disable page fault handling because
>> page faults are not very atomic. This makes them naturally resistant
>> to deadlocking in page fault handling. They take the page fault
>> itself but short-circuit any handling.
> 
> #1 is emphatically valid: the deadlock avoidance is in _both_ using
> _atomic when we have locks held, and doing the actual faulting with
> locks dropped... either alone would be a buggy incomplete solution.

I was (badly) attempting to separate out the two different problems:

	1. Doing lock_page() twice, which I was mostly calling the
	   "deadlock"
	2. Retrying the copy_folio_from_iter_atomic() forever which I
	   was calling the "livelock"

Disabling page faults fixes #1.
Doing faulting outside the locks somewhere fixes #2.

So when I was talking about "Deadlock avoidance" in the cover letter, I
was trying to focus on the double lock_page() problem.

> This needs to be reflected and fully described in the comments, since
> it's subtle and a lot of people don't fully grok what's going on.

Any suggestions for fully describing the situation? I tried to sprinkle
comments liberally but I'm also painfully aware that I'm not doing a
perfect job of talking about the fs code.

> I'm fairly certain we have ioctl code where this is mishandled and thus
> buggy, because it takes some fairly particular testing for lockdep to
> spot it.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. It was having a little chuckle thinking
about how many engineers have discovered and fixed this problem
independently over the years in all the file system code in all the OSes.

>> copy_folio_from_iter_atomic() also *does* have user address checking.
>> I get a little lost in the iov_iter code, but it does know when it's
>> dealing with userspace versus kernel addresses and does seem to know
>> when to do things like copy_from_user_iter() (which does access_ok())
>> versus memcpy_from_iter().[1]
>>
>> The "optimization" is for the case where 'source' is not faulted in.
>> It can avoid the cost of a "failed" page fault (it will fail to be
>> handled because of the atomic copy) and then needing to drop locks and
>> repeat the fault.
> 
> I do agree on moving it to the slowpath - I think we can expect the case
> where the process's immediate workingset is faulted out while it's
> running to be vanishingly small.

Great! I'm glad we're on the same page there.

For bcachefs specifically, how should we move forward? If you're happy
with the concept, would you prefer that I do some manual bcachefs
testing? Or leave a branch sitting there for a week and pray the robots
test it?

Powered by blists - more mailing lists