linux-kernel - Re: Rust kernel policy

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Message-ID: <58959F5F-2207-4FE0-A077-273493F2D9EF@zytor.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2025 06:38:20 -0800
From: "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@...or.com>
To: Martin Uecker <uecker@...raz.at>, Dan Carpenter <dan.carpenter@...aro.org>
CC: Greg KH <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>, Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@...il.com>,
        Miguel Ojeda <miguel.ojeda.sandonis@...il.com>,
        Christoph Hellwig <hch@...radead.org>,
        rust-for-linux <rust-for-linux@...r.kernel.org>,
        Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
        David Airlie <airlied@...il.com>, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
        ksummit@...ts.linux.dev, Justin Stitt <justinstitt@...gle.com>,
        Kees Cook <keescook@...omium.org>
Subject: Re: Rust kernel policy

On February 20, 2025 6:09:21 AM PST, Martin Uecker <uecker@...raz.at> wrote:
>Am Donnerstag, dem 20.02.2025 um 16:46 +0300 schrieb Dan Carpenter:
>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 09:57:29AM +0100, Martin Uecker wrote:
>> > In particulary, I have a relatively concrete plan to have a memory safe
>> > mode for C that can be toggled for some region of code and would make
>> > sure there is no UB or memory safety issues left (I am experimenting with
>> > this in the GCC FE).  So the idea is that one could start to activate this
>> > for certain critical regions of code to make sure there is no signed
>> > integer overflow or OOB access in it.
>> 
>> I don't think diferentiating between signed and unsigned integer
>> overflows is useful.  In the kernel, most security issues from integer
>> overflows are from unsigned integer overflows.  Kees says that we
>> should warn about "Unexpected" behavior instead of "Undefined".  In fact,
>> Justin Stitt has done the opposite of what you're doing and only checks
>> for unsigned overflows.  He created a sanitizer that warns about integer
>> overflows involving size_t type (which is unsigned), because sizes are
>> so important.  (Checking only size_t avoids probably the largest source
>> of harmless integer overflows which is dealing with time).
>
>I agree with you.  We were also discussing an attribute that
>can be attached to certain unsigned types to indicate that
>wrapping is an error. 
>
>My more limited aim (because my personal time is very limited)
>is to define a memory safe subset and in such a subset you can
>not have UB.  Hence, I am more focussed on signed overflow at
>the moment, but I agree that safety in general must go beyond 
>this.
>
>But this is why I want the kernel community to be more involved,
>to get more resources and more experience into these discussions.
>
>> 
>> The sanitizer has a list of exceptions like if (a < a + b) where the
>> integer overflow is idiomatic.  But the concern was that there might be
>> other deliberate integer overflows which aren't in the exception list so
>> Justin also created a macro to turn off the santizer.
>> 
>> 	x = wrapping_ok(a + b);
>
>Indeed. This is the main issue with unsigned wraparound. Exactly
>because it was always defined, simply screening for wraparound
>yields many false positives. 
>
>(BTW: Rust is also not perfectly immune to such errors:
>https://rustsec.org/advisories/RUSTSEC-2023-0080.html)
>
>
>> 
>> What I would like is a similar macro so we could write code like:
>> 
>> 	x = saturate_math(a + b + c + d * d_size);
>> 
>> If anything overflowed the result would be ULONG_MAX.  In the kernel,
>> we have the size_add() and size_mul() macros which do saturation math
>> instead of wrapping math but we'd have to say:
>> 
>> 	x = size_add(a, size_add(b, size_add(c, size_add(size_mul(d, d_size)))));
>> 
>> Which is super ugly.  Maybe we could create something like this macro?
>> 
>> #define saturate_math(x) ({             \
>>         unsigned long res;              \
>>         __trap_overflow(label_name));   \
>>         res = (x);                      \
>>         if (0) {                        \
>> lable_name:                             \
>>                 res = ULONG_MAX;        \
>>         }                               \
>>         res;                            \
>> })
>> 
>
>We added checked arhithmetic to C23, we could add saturating
>math to C2Y if this is needed.  (although I admit I do not fully
>understand the use case of saturating math, a saturated value
>still seems to be an error? Statistics, where it does not matter?)
>
>In general, if people have good ideas what compilers or the language
>standard can do to help, please talk to us. It is possible to
>improve compilers and/or the language itself.
>
>
>Martin
>
>
>
>

This is exactly the sort of things quick is quite easy to do with C++ but requires ad hoc compiler extensions for C.