Message-ID: <Z7zF8KF9qTCr_n4l@boqun-archlinux>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2025 11:18:08 -0800
From: Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@...il.com>
To: Andreas Hindborg <a.hindborg@...nel.org>
Cc: Miguel Ojeda <miguel.ojeda.sandonis@...il.com>,
	Frederic Weisbecker <frederic@...nel.org>,
	Anna-Maria Behnsen <anna-maria@...utronix.de>,
	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,
	Danilo Krummrich <dakr@...nel.org>,
	Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor@...il.com>, Gary Guo <gary@...yguo.net>,
	Björn Roy Baron <bjorn3_gh@...tonmail.com>,
	Benno Lossin <benno.lossin@...ton.me>,
	Alice Ryhl <aliceryhl@...gle.com>, Trevor Gross <tmgross@...ch.edu>,
	Lyude Paul <lyude@...hat.com>, Guangbo Cui <2407018371@...com>,
	Dirk Behme <dirk.behme@...il.com>,
	Daniel Almeida <daniel.almeida@...labora.com>,
	Tamir Duberstein <tamird@...il.com>, rust-for-linux@...r.kernel.org,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, Miguel Ojeda <ojeda@...nel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v9 01/13] rust: hrtimer: introduce hrtimer support

On Mon, Feb 24, 2025 at 07:58:04PM +0100, Andreas Hindborg wrote:
> "Boqun Feng" <boqun.feng@...il.com> writes:
> 
> > On Mon, Feb 24, 2025 at 05:45:03PM +0100, Miguel Ojeda wrote:
> >> On Mon, Feb 24, 2025 at 5:31 PM Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@...il.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Feb 24, 2025 at 05:23:59PM +0100, Miguel Ojeda wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > side -- Andreas and I discussed it the other day. The description of
> >> > > the issue has some lines, but perhaps the commit message could
> >> >
> >> > Do you have a link to the issue?
> >>
> >> Sorry, I meant "description of the symbol", i.e. the description field
> >> in the patch.
> >>
> >
> > Oh, I see. Yes, the patch description should provide more information
> > about what the kconfig means for hrtimer maintainers' development.
> 
> Right, I neglected to update the commit message. I will do that if we
> have another version.
> 
> >
> >> > I asked because hrtimer API is always available regardless of the
> >> > configuration, and it's such a core API, so it should always be there
> >> > (Rust or C).
> >>
> >> It may not make sense for something that is always built on the C
> >> side, yeah. I think the intention here may be that one can easily
> >> disable it while "developing" a change on the C side. I am not sure
> >> what "developing" means here, though, and we need to be careful --
> >> after all, Kconfig options are visible to users and they do not care
> >> about that.
> >>
> >
> > Personally, I don't think CONFIG_RUST_HRTIMER is necessarily because as
> > you mentioned below, people can disable Rust entirely during
> > "developing".
> >
> > And if I understand the intention correctly, the CONFIG_RUST_HRTIMER
> > config provides hrtimer maintainers a way that they could disable Rust
> > hrtimer abstraction (while enabling other Rust component) when they're
> > developing a change on the C side, right? If so, it's hrtimer
> > maintainers' call, and this patch should provide more information on
> > this.
> >
> > Back to my personal opinion, I don't think this is necessary ;-)
> > Particularly because I can fix if something breaks Rust side, and I'm
> > confident and happy to do so for hrtimer ;-)
> 
> As Miguel said, the idea for this came up in the past week in one of the
> mega threads discussing rust in general. We had a lot of "what happens
> if I change something in my subsystem and that breaks rust" kind of
> discussions.
> 

So far we haven't heard such a question from hrtimer maintainers, I
would only add such a kconfig if explicitly requested.

> For subsystems where the people maintaining the C subsystem is not the
> same people maintaining the Rust abstractions, this switch might be
> valuable. It would allow making breaking changes to the C code of a
> subsystem without refactoring the Rust code in the same sitting. Rather

That's why I asked Frederic to be a reviewer of Rust hrtimer API. In
longer-term, more and more people will get more or less Rust knowledge,
and I'd argue that's the direction we should head to. So my vision is a
significant amount of core kernel developers would be able to make C and
Rust changes at the same time. It's of course not mandatory, but it's
better collaboration.

> than having to disable rust entirely - or going and commenting out lines
> in the kernel crate - I think it is better to provide an option to just
> disable building these particular bindings.
> 
> This has nothing to do with general policies related to breakage between
> Rust and C code, and how to fix such breakage in a timely manner. It is
> simply a useful switch for disabling part of the build so that people
> can move on with their business, while someone else scrambles to fix
> whatever needs fixing on the Rust side.
> 

It's of course up to hrtimer maintainers. But I personally nack this
kconfig, because it's not necessary, and hrtimer API has been stable for
a while.

Regards,
Boqun

> I am of course also available to fix anything that would eventually
> break. In fact, I expect to be able to catch breakage most of the time
> automatically and very early by means of automatically monitoring the
> relevant trees. I do this for block, and it has worked really well since
> rust code was merged in that subsystem.
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> Andreas Hindborg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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