Message-ID: <20250314142412.00001689@huawei.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2025 14:24:12 +0000
From: Jonathan Cameron <Jonathan.Cameron@...wei.com>
To: "Huang, Ying" <ying.huang@...ux.alibaba.com>
CC: Raghavendra K T <raghavendra.kt@....com>, <linux-mm@...ck.org>,
	<akpm@...ux-foundation.org>, <lsf-pc@...ts.linux-foundation.org>,
	<bharata@....com>, <gourry@...rry.net>, <nehagholkar@...a.com>,
	<abhishekd@...a.com>, <nphamcs@...il.com>, <hannes@...xchg.org>,
	<feng.tang@...el.com>, <kbusch@...a.com>, <Hasan.Maruf@....com>,
	<sj@...nel.org>, <david@...hat.com>, <willy@...radead.org>,
	<k.shutemov@...il.com>, <mgorman@...hsingularity.net>, <vbabka@...e.cz>,
	<hughd@...gle.com>, <rientjes@...gle.com>, <shy828301@...il.com>,
	<liam.howlett@...cle.com>, <peterz@...radead.org>, <mingo@...hat.com>,
	<nadav.amit@...il.com>, <shivankg@....com>, <ziy@...dia.com>,
	<jhubbard@...dia.com>, <AneeshKumar.KizhakeVeetil@....com>,
	<linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>, <jon.grimm@....com>,
	<santosh.shukla@....com>, <Michael.Day@....com>, <riel@...riel.com>,
	<weixugc@...gle.com>, <leesuyeon0506@...il.com>, <honggyu.kim@...com>,
	<leillc@...gle.com>, <kmanaouil.dev@...il.com>, <rppt@...nel.org>,
	<dave.hansen@...el.com>
Subject: Re: [LSF/MM/BPF TOPIC] Unifying sources of page temperature
 information - what info is actually wanted?

On Sun, 16 Feb 2025 14:49:50 +0800
"Huang, Ying" <ying.huang@...ux.alibaba.com> wrote:

> Hi, Jonathan,
> 
> Sorry for late reply.

Sorry for even later reply!

> 
> Jonathan Cameron <Jonathan.Cameron@...wei.com> writes:
> 
> > On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 12:28:03 +0000
> > Jonathan Cameron <Jonathan.Cameron@...wei.com> wrote:
> >  
> >> > Here is the list of potential discussion points:    
> >> ...
> >>   
> >> > 2. Possibility of maintaining single source of truth for page hotness that would
> >> > maintain hot page information from multiple sources and let other sub-systems
> >> > use that info.    
> >> Hi,
> >> 
> >> I was thinking of proposing a separate topic on a single source of hotness,
> >> but this question covers it so I'll add some thoughts here instead.
> >> I think we are very early, but sharing some experience and thoughts in a
> >> session may be useful.  
> >
> > Thinking more on this over lunch, I think it is worth calling this out as a
> > potential session topic in it's own right rather than trying to find
> > time within other sessions.  Hence the title change.
> >
> > I think a session would start with a brief listing of the temperature sources
> > we have and those on the horizon to motivate what we are unifying, then
> > discussion to focus on need for such a unification + requirements 
> > (maybe with a straw man).
> >  
> >> 
> >> What do the other subsystems that want to use a single source of page hotness
> >> want to be able to find out? (subject to filters like memory range, process etc)
> >> 
> >> A) How hot is page X?  
> >> - Is this useful, or too much data? What would use it?
> >>   * Application optimization maybe. Very handy for developing algorithms
> >>     to do the rest of the options here as an Oracle!
> >> - Provides both the cold and hot end of the scale, but maybe measurement
> >>   techniques vary and can not be easily combined. Hard in general to combine
> >>   multiple sources of truth if aiming for an absolute number.
> >> 
> >> B) Which pages are super hot?
> >> - Probably these that make the most difference if they are in a slower memory tier.
> >> 
> >> C) Some pages are hot enough to consider moving?
> >> - This may be good enough to get the key data into the fast memory over time.
> >> - Can combine sources of info as being able to compare precise numbers doesn't matter.
> >> 
> >> D) Which pages are fairly cold?
> >> - Likewise maybe good enough over time.
> >> 
> >> E) Which pages are very cold?
> >> - Ideal case for tiering. Swap these with the super hot ones.
> >> - Maybe extra signal for swap / zswap etc
> >> 
> >> F) Did these hot pages remain hot (and same for cold)
> >> - This is needed to know when to back off doing things as we have unstable
> >>   hotness (two phase applications are a pain for this), sampling a few
> >>   pages may be fine.
> >> 
> >> Messy corners:
> >> 
> >> Temporal aspects.
> >> - If only providing lists of hottest / coldest in last second, very hard
> >>   to find those that are of a stable temperature. We end up moving
> >>   very hot data (which is disruptive) and it doesn't stay hot.
> >> - Can reduce that affect by long sampling windows on some measurement approaches
> >>   (on hardware trackers that can trash accuracy due to resource exhaustion
> >>    and other subtle effects).
> >> - bistable / phase based applications are a pain but perhaps up to higher
> >>   levels to back off.
> >> 
> >> My main interest is migrating in tiered systems but good to look at what
> >> else would use a common layer.
> >> 
> >> Mostly I want to know something that is useful to move, and assume convergence
> >> over the long term with the best things to move so to me the ideal layer has
> >> following interface (strawman so shoot holes in it!):
> >> 
> >> 1) Give me up to X hotish pages from a slow tier (greater than a specific measure
> >> of temperature)  
> 
> Because the hot pages may be available upon page accessing (such PROT_NONE
> page fault), the interface may be "push" style instead of "pull" style,
> e.g.,

Absolutely agree that might be the approach, but with some form of back pressure
as for at least some approaches it is much cheaper to find a find a few hot
pages than to find lots of them.  More complex if you want a few of the very hottest
or just hotter than X. 

> 
> int register_hot_page_handler(void (*handler)(struct page *hot_page, int temperature));
> 
> >> 2) Give me X coldish pages a faster tier.
> >> 3) I expect to ask again in X seconds so please have some info ready for me!
> >> 4) (a path to get an idea of 'unhelpful moves' from earlier iterations - this
> >>     is bleeding the tiering application into a shared interface though).  
> 
> In addition to get a list hot/cold pages, it's also useful to get
> hot/cold statistics of a memory device (NUMA node), e.g., something like
> below,
> 
> Access frequency        percent
>    > 1000 HZ            10%  
>  600-1000 HZ            20%
>  200- 600 HZ            50%
>    1- 200 HZ            15%
>       < 1 HZ             5%
> 
> Compared with hot/cold pages list, this may be gotten with lower
> overhead and can be useful to tune the promotion/demotion alrogithm.  At
> the same time, a sampled (incomplete) list of hot/cold page list may be
> available too.

I agree it's useful info and 'might' be cheaper to get.  Depends on the
tracking solution and impacts of sampling approaches.

> 
> >> If we have multiple subsystems using the data we will need to resolve their
> >> conflicting demands to generate good enough data with appropriate overhead.
> >> 
> >> I'd also like a virtualized solution for case of hardware PA trackers (what
> >> I have with CXL Hotness Monitoring Units) and classic memory pool / stranding
> >> avoidance case where the VM is the right entity to make migration decisions.
> >> Making that interface convey what the kernel is going to use would be an
> >> efficient option. I'd like to hide how the sausage was made from the VM.  
> 
> ---
> Best Regards,
> Huang, Ying

Powered by blists - more mailing lists