Message-ID: <41e60fa0-2943-4b3f-ba92-9f02838c881b@redhat.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2025 11:30:47 +0200
From: David Hildenbrand <david@...hat.com>
To: Yafang Shao <laoar.shao@...il.com>, Johannes Weiner <hannes@...xchg.org>
Cc: Usama Arif <usamaarif642@...il.com>, Zi Yan <ziy@...dia.com>,
 Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>, linux-mm@...ck.org,
 shakeel.butt@...ux.dev, riel@...riel.com, baolin.wang@...ux.alibaba.com,
 lorenzo.stoakes@...cle.com, Liam.Howlett@...cle.com, npache@...hat.com,
 ryan.roberts@....com, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, kernel-team@...a.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/1] prctl: allow overriding system THP policy to always

On 09.05.25 11:24, Yafang Shao wrote:
> On Fri, May 9, 2025 at 1:13 PM Johannes Weiner <hannes@...xchg.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, May 09, 2025 at 10:15:08AM +0800, Yafang Shao wrote:
>>> On Fri, May 9, 2025 at 12:04 AM Usama Arif <usamaarif642@...il.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 08/05/2025 06:41, Yafang Shao wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, May 8, 2025 at 12:09 AM Usama Arif <usamaarif642@...il.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 07/05/2025 16:57, Zi Yan wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7 May 2025, at 11:12, Usama Arif wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 07/05/2025 15:57, Zi Yan wrote:
>>>>>>>>> +Yafang, who is also looking at changing THP config at cgroup/container level.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 7 May 2025, at 10:00, Usama Arif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Allowing override of global THP policy per process allows workloads
>>>>>>>>>> that have shown to benefit from hugepages to do so, without regressing
>>>>>>>>>> workloads that wouldn't benefit. This will allow such types of
>>>>>>>>>> workloads to be run/stacked on the same machine.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It also helps in rolling out hugepages in hyperscaler configurations
>>>>>>>>>> for workloads that benefit from them, where a single THP policy is
>>>>>>>>>> likely to be used across the entire fleet, and prctl will help override it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> An advantage of doing it via prctl vs creating a cgroup specific
>>>>>>>>>> option (like /sys/fs/cgroup/test/memory.transparent_hugepage.enabled) is
>>>>>>>>>> that this will work even when there are no cgroups present, and my
>>>>>>>>>> understanding is there is a strong preference of cgroups controls being
>>>>>>>>>> hierarchical which usually means them having a numerical value.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Usama,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you mind giving an example on how to change THP policy for a set of
>>>>>>>>> processes running in a container (under a cgroup)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Zi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In our case, we create the processes in the cgroup via systemd. The way we will enable THP=always
>>>>>>>> for processes in a cgroup is in the same way we enable KSM for the cgroup.
>>>>>>>> The change in systemd would be very similar to the line in [1], where we would set prctl PR_SET_THP_ALWAYS
>>>>>>>> in exec-invoke.
>>>>>>>> This is at the start of the process, but you would already know at the start of the process
>>>>>>>> whether you want THP=always for it or not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1] https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blob/2e72d3efafa88c1cb4d9b28dd4ade7c6ab7be29a/src/core/exec-invoke.c#L5045
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You also need to add a new systemd.directives, e.g., MemoryTHP, to
>>>>>>> pass the THP enablement or disablement info from a systemd config file.
>>>>>>> And if you find those processes do not benefit from using THPs,
>>>>>>> you can just change the new "MemoryTHP" config and restart the processes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am I getting it? Thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, thats right. They would exactly the same as what we (Meta) do
>>>>>> for KSM. So have MemoryTHP similar to MemroryKSM [1] and if MemoryTHP is set,
>>>>>> the ExecContext->memory_thp would be set similar to memory_ksm [2], and when
>>>>>> that is set, the prctl will be called at exec_invoke of the process [3].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The systemd changes should be quite simple to do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blob/2e72d3efafa88c1cb4d9b28dd4ade7c6ab7be29a/man/systemd.exec.xml#L1978
>>>>>> [2] https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blob/2e72d3efafa88c1cb4d9b28dd4ade7c6ab7be29a/src/core/dbus-execute.c#L2151
>>>>>> [3] https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blob/2e72d3efafa88c1cb4d9b28dd4ade7c6ab7be29a/src/core/exec-invoke.c#L5045
>>>>>
>>>>> This solution carries a risk: since prctl() does not require any
>>>>> capabilities, the task itself could call it and override your memory
>>>>> policy. While we could enforce CAP_SYS_RESOURCE to restrict this, that
>>>>> capability is typically enabled by default in containers, leaving them
>>>>> still vulnerable.
>>>>>
>>>>> This approach might work for Kubernetes/container environments, but it
>>>>> would require substantial code changes to implement securely.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You can already change the memory policy with prctl, for e.g. PR_SET_THP_DISABLE
>>>> already exists and the someone could use this to slow the process down. So the
>>>> approach this patch takes shouldn't be anymore of a security fix then what is already
>>>> exposed by the kernel. I think as you mentioned, if prctl is an issue CAP_SYS_RESOURCE
>>>> should be used to restrict this.
>>>
>>> I believe we should at least require CAP_SYS_RESOURCE to enable THP,
>>> since it overrides global system settings. Alternatively,
>>> CAP_SYS_ADMIN might be even more appropriate, though I'm not entirely
>>> certain.
>>
>> Hm, could you verbalize a concrete security concern?
>>
>> I've never really looked at the global settings as a hard policy, more
>> as picking a default for the workloads in the system. It's usually
>> `madvise' or `always', and MADV_HUGEPAGE and MADV_NOHUGEPAGE have long
>> existed to give applications the ability to refine the global choice.
>>
>> The prctl should probably respect `never' for consistency, but beyond
>> that I don't really see the concern, or how this would allow something
>> that isn't already possible.
> 
> I would interpret the always, madvise, and never options as follows:
> - always
>    The sysadmin strongly recommends using THP. If a user does not
> want to use it, they must explicitly disable it.
> - madvise
>   The sysadmin gently encourages the use of THP, but it is only
> enabled when explicitly requested by the application.
> - never
>    The sysadmin discourages the use of THP, and "its use is only permitted
> with explicit approval" .

"never" so far means "no thps, no exceptions". We've had serious THP 
issues in the past, where our workaround until we sorted out the issue 
for affected customers was to force-disable THPs on that system during boot.

-- 
Cheers,

David / dhildenb

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