Message-ID: <2025051612-stained-wasting-26d3@gregkh>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2025 09:51:36 +0200
From: Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>
To: Damien Riégel <damien.riegel@...abs.com>
Cc: Andrew Lunn <andrew@...n.ch>, Andrew Lunn <andrew+netdev@...n.ch>,
	"David S . Miller" <davem@...emloft.net>,
	Eric Dumazet <edumazet@...gle.com>,
	Jakub Kicinski <kuba@...nel.org>, Paolo Abeni <pabeni@...hat.com>,
	Rob Herring <robh@...nel.org>,
	Krzysztof Kozlowski <krzk+dt@...nel.org>,
	Conor Dooley <conor+dt@...nel.org>,
	Silicon Labs Kernel Team <linux-devel@...abs.com>,
	netdev@...r.kernel.org, devicetree@...r.kernel.org,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, Johan Hovold <johan@...nel.org>,
	Alex Elder <elder@...nel.org>, greybus-dev@...ts.linaro.org
Subject: Re: [RFC net-next 00/15] Add support for Silicon Labs CPC

On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:00:39AM -0400, Damien Riégel wrote:
> On Thu May 15, 2025 at 3:49 AM EDT, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> > On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 06:52:27PM -0400, Damien Riégel wrote:
> >> On Tue May 13, 2025 at 5:53 PM EDT, Andrew Lunn wrote:
> >> > On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 05:15:20PM -0400, Damien Riégel wrote:
> >> >> On Mon May 12, 2025 at 1:07 PM EDT, Andrew Lunn wrote:
> >> >> > On Sun, May 11, 2025 at 09:27:33PM -0400, Damien Riégel wrote:
> >> >> >> Hi,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> This patchset brings initial support for Silicon Labs CPC protocol,
> >> >> >> standing for Co-Processor Communication. This protocol is used by the
> >> >> >> EFR32 Series [1]. These devices offer a variety for radio protocols,
> >> >> >> such as Bluetooth, Z-Wave, Zigbee [2].
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Before we get too deep into the details of the patches, please could
> >> >> > you do a compare/contrast to Greybus.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thank you for the prompt feedback on the RFC. We took a look at Greybus
> >> >> in the past and it didn't seem to fit our needs. One of the main use
> >> >> case that drove the development of CPC was to support WiFi (in
> >> >> coexistence with other radio stacks) over SDIO, and get the maximum
> >> >> throughput possible. We concluded that to achieve this we would need
> >> >> packet aggregation, as sending one frame at a time over SDIO is
> >> >> wasteful, and managing Radio Co-Processor available buffers, as sending
> >> >> frames that the RCP is not able to process would degrade performance.
> >> >>
> >> >> Greybus don't seem to offer these capabilities. It seems to be more
> >> >> geared towards implementing RPC, where the host would send a command,
> >> >> and then wait for the device to execute it and to respond. For Greybus'
> >> >> protocols that implement some "streaming" features like audio or video
> >> >> capture, the data streams go to an I2S or CSI interface, but it doesn't
> >> >> seem to go through a CPort. So it seems to act as a backbone to connect
> >> >> CPorts together, but high-throughput transfers happen on other types of
> >> >> links. CPC is more about moving data over a physical link, guaranteeing
> >> >> ordered delivery and avoiding unnecessary transmissions if remote
> >> >> doesn't have the resources, it's much lower level than Greybus.
> >> >
> >> > As is said, i don't know Greybus too well. I hope its Maintainers can
> >> > comment on this.
> >> >
> >> >> > Also, this patch adds Bluetooth, you talk about Z-Wave and Zigbee. But
> >> >> > the EFR32 is a general purpose SoC, with I2C, SPI, PWM, UART. Greybus
> >> >> > has support for these, although the code is current in staging. But
> >> >> > for staging code, it is actually pretty good.
> >> >>
> >> >> I agree with you that the EFR32 is a general purpose SoC and exposing
> >> >> all available peripherals would be great, but most customers buy it as
> >> >> an RCP module with one or more radio stacks enabled, and that's the
> >> >> situation we're trying to address. Maybe I introduced a framework with
> >> >> custom bus, drivers and endpoints where it was unnecessary, the goal is
> >> >> not to be super generic but only to support coexistence of our radio
> >> >> stacks.
> >> >
> >> > This leads to my next problem.
> >> >
> >> > https://www.nordicsemi.com/-/media/Software-and-other-downloads/Product-Briefs/nRF5340-SoC-PB.pdf
> >> > Nordic Semiconductor has what appears to be a similar device.
> >> >
> >> > https://www.microchip.com/en-us/products/wireless-connectivity/bluetooth-low-energy/microcontrollers
> >> > Microchip has a similar device as well.
> >> >
> >> > https://www.ti.com/product/CC2674R10
> >> > TI has a similar device.
> >> >
> >> > And maybe there are others?
> >> >
> >> > Are we going to get a Silabs CPC, a Nordic CPC, a Microchip CPC, a TI
> >> > CPC, and an ACME CPC?
> >> >
> >> > How do we end up with one implementation?
> >> >
> >> > Maybe Greybus does not currently support your streaming use case too
> >> > well, but it is at least vendor neutral. Can it be extended for
> >> > streaming?
> >>
> >> I get the sentiment that we don't want every single vendor to push their
> >> own protocols that are ever so slightly different. To be honest, I don't
> >> know if Greybus can be extended for that use case, or if it's something
> >> they are interested in supporting. I've subscribed to greybus-dev so
> >> hopefully my email will get through this time (previous one is pending
> >> approval).
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, we're deep down the CPC road, especially on the firmware
> >> side. Blame on me for not sending the RFC sooner and getting feedback
> >> earlier, but if we have to massively change our course of action we need
> >> some degree of confidence that this is a viable alternative for
> >> achieving high-throughput for WiFi over SDIO. I would really value any
> >> input from the Greybus folks on this.
> >
> > So what you are looking for is a standard way to "tunnel" SDIO over some
> > other physical transport, right?  If so, then yes, please use Greybus as
> > that is exactly what it was designed for.
> 
> No, we want to use SDIO as physical transport. To use the Greybus
> terminology, our MCUs would act as modules with a single interface, and
> that interface would have "radio" bundles for each of the supported
> stack.
> 
> So we want to expose our radio stacks in Linux and Greybus doesn't
> define protocols for that, so that's kind of uncharted territories and
> we were wondering if Greybus would be the right tool for that. I hope
> the situation is a bit clearer now.

Yes, greybus does not expose a "wifi" protocol as that is way too device
specific, sorry.

So this just would be like any other normal SDIO wifi device then,
shouldn't be anything special, right?

thanks,

greg k-h

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