Message-ID: <2025070353-algebra-exhume-1f21@gregkh>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2025 14:50:48 +0200
From: Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>
To: Danilo Krummrich <dakr@...nel.org>
Cc: Alice Ryhl <aliceryhl@...gle.com>, Benno Lossin <lossin@...nel.org>,
	Matthew Maurer <mmaurer@...gle.com>,
	Miguel Ojeda <ojeda@...nel.org>,
	Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor@...il.com>,
	Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@...il.com>, Gary Guo <gary@...yguo.net>,
	Björn Roy Baron <bjorn3_gh@...tonmail.com>,
	Andreas Hindborg <a.hindborg@...nel.org>,
	Trevor Gross <tmgross@...ch.edu>,
	"Rafael J. Wysocki" <rafael@...nel.org>,
	Sami Tolvanen <samitolvanen@...gle.com>,
	Timur Tabi <ttabi@...dia.com>, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
	rust-for-linux@...r.kernel.org,
	Dirk Behme <dirk.behme@...bosch.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v8 4/6] rust: debugfs: Support arbitrary owned backing
 for File

On Thu, Jul 03, 2025 at 02:29:31PM +0200, Danilo Krummrich wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 03, 2025 at 01:41:53PM +0200, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> > Yes, we need to be able to have a debugfs file callback handle a mutable
> > structure in order to lock things correctly.  We also need to have it be
> > mutable so that it can MODIFY the value (everyone seems to forget that
> > debugfs allows that...)
> 
> Well, that's possible with both approaches. Data behind a lock becomes mutable
> once you grabbed the lock. That's the same in both cases.
> 
> The difference is that with the pin-init approach I propose you can't have what
> Alice sketched up. And I think it's even desirable that you can't do it.
> 
> Let's me explain the difference on a simplified example, based on Alice'
> example.
> 
> ForeignOwnable API
> ------------------
> 
> 	#[pin_data]
> 	struct Process {
> 	    task: ARef<Task>,
> 	    #[pin]
> 	    inner: SpinLock<ProcessInner>,
> 	}
> 	
> 	pub(crate) struct ProcessInner {
> 	    threads: RBTree<i32, Arc<Thread>>,
> 	    max_threads: u32,
> 	}
> 
> Here we have to create an Arc<Process> (let's call it process) and create files
> from it.
> 
> 	let file_threads = dir.create_file("threads", process);
> 	let file_max_threads = dir.create_file("max_threads", process);
> 
> In the file system callback of both of these, we now have an Arc<Process>, hence
> we can access:
> 
> 	let guard = process.inner.lock();
> 
> 	read_or_write(guard.max_threads);
> 
> and in the other file:
> 
> 	let guard = process.inner.lock();
> 
> 	read_or_write(guard.max_threads);
> 
> Pin-Init API
> ------------
> 
> 	#[pin_data]
> 	struct Process {
> 	    task: ARef<Task>,
> 	    #[pin]
> 	    inner: File<SpinLock<ProcessInner>>,
> 	}
> 	
> 	pub(crate) struct ProcessInner {
> 	    threads: RBTree<i32, Arc<Thread>>,
> 	    max_threads: u32,
> 	}
> 
> Here Process does not need to be within an Arc and no separate file instances
> need to be kept around, that happens already within the constructor of Process:
> 
> 	pin_init!(Process {
> 	   inner <- dir.create_file("process_inner", ...),
> 	   [...]
> 	})
> 
> The file itself has a reference to SpinLock<ProcessInner>, hence we can access:
> 
> 	let guard = inner.lock();
> 
> 	read_or_write(guard.threads)
> 	read_or_write(guard.max_threads)
> 
> The difference is that with the ForeignOwnable API it was possible to have
> separate files for threads and max_threads.
> 
> While with the pin-init one we either have to have a single file exposing
> ProcessInner (which is what I did above) or protect threads and max_threads
> with separate locks (of course max_threads could also just be an atomic).
> 
> (If you like I can sketch up this case as well.)
> 
> At a first glance this seems like an undesirable limitation, but I argue that
> this is a good thing.
> 
> The reason I think so is what I also explained in [1], but let me adjust it a
> bit for this reply:
> 
> threads and max_threads being protected by the same lock means that they are in
> a certain relationship to each other. Meaning that they only really make sense
> looking at them atomically.
> 
> So I argue it does not make sense to expose those values to userspace through
> separate files.
> 
> For instance:
> 
> 	$ cat max_threads && cat threads
> 	$ 5
> 	$ 10
> 
> This way you may read 5 max_threads, but 10 actual threads, because things may
> have changed in between the two cat commands.
> 
> However, if instead, they are exposed through a single file, we get an atomic
> view of them, such that the semantic relationship between them is preserved.
> 
> For instance:
> 
> 	$ cat process_info
> 	$ threads: 2
> 	$ max_threads: 10

I think you mean to write:
 	$ cat process_info
 	threads: 2
 	max_threads: 10

right?

> So, what I'm trying to say is, I think it's a good thing if fields that are
> protected by the same lock can't be exposed through separate files, because it
> means that the fields only make sense in the context of each other.
> 
> Or saying it the other way around, if it makes sense to expose fields through
> separate files, it means they're unrelated to each other and hence should be
> protected with separate locks, rather than a common one.
> 
> IMHO it's even a good thing beyond the scope of debugfs, because it forces
> developers to really think about organizing structures properly, e.g. in a way
> that only fields that really belong behind a certain lock are placed behind this
> lock.
> 
> > So how about a platform driver that exposes values read from a platform
> > device (i.e. a soc info driver), that also includes a
> > local-to-the-device data structure that can be locked and modified?
> > That should cover all the use cases that I can think of at the moment.
> 
> Yes, I also really like to have that.
> 
> But, again, both approaches can do this. It's just that I really discourage the
> one that forces us to have an Arc instance on structures exposed through
> debugfs, since this messes with the driver's lifetime and ownership
> architecture in a bad way.
> 

Thanks for the long descriptions, that's great to help out here.  I'll
wait for the next patch series with a real example to show my ignorance
of rust some more :)

thanks,

greg k-h

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