Message-ID: <aHZ6Rp4qdCXUoIZy@Mac.home>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 08:56:54 -0700
From: Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@...il.com>
To: Ralf Jung <post@...fj.de>
Cc: Benno Lossin <lossin@...nel.org>, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
	rust-for-linux@...r.kernel.org, lkmm@...ts.linux.dev,
	linux-arch@...r.kernel.org, Miguel Ojeda <ojeda@...nel.org>,
	Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor@...il.com>, Gary Guo <gary@...yguo.net>,
	Björn Roy Baron <bjorn3_gh@...tonmail.com>,
	Andreas Hindborg <a.hindborg@...nel.org>,
	Alice Ryhl <aliceryhl@...gle.com>, Trevor Gross <tmgross@...ch.edu>,
	Danilo Krummrich <dakr@...nel.org>, Will Deacon <will@...nel.org>,
	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
	Mark Rutland <mark.rutland@....com>,
	Wedson Almeida Filho <wedsonaf@...il.com>,
	Viresh Kumar <viresh.kumar@...aro.org>,	Lyude Paul <lyude@...hat.com>,
 Ingo Molnar <mingo@...nel.org>,	Mitchell Levy <levymitchell0@...il.com>,
	"Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@...nel.org>,
	Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,
	Alan Stern <stern@...land.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v6 8/9] rust: sync: Add memory barriers

On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 05:35:47PM +0200, Ralf Jung wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> On 15.07.25 17:21, Boqun Feng wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 05:42:39PM +0200, Ralf Jung wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > > 
> > > On 11.07.25 20:20, Boqun Feng wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Jul 11, 2025 at 10:57:48AM +0200, Benno Lossin wrote:
> > > > > On Thu Jul 10, 2025 at 8:00 AM CEST, Boqun Feng wrote:
> > > > > > diff --git a/rust/kernel/sync/barrier.rs b/rust/kernel/sync/barrier.rs
> > > > > > new file mode 100644
> > > > > > index 000000000000..df4015221503
> > > > > > --- /dev/null
> > > > > > +++ b/rust/kernel/sync/barrier.rs
> > > > > > @@ -0,0 +1,65 @@
> > > > > > +// SPDX-License-Identifier: GPL-2.0
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +//! Memory barriers.
> > > > > > +//!
> > > > > > +//! These primitives have the same semantics as their C counterparts: and the precise definitions
> > > > > > +//! of semantics can be found at [`LKMM`].
> > > > > > +//!
> > > > > > +//! [`LKMM`]: srctree/tools/memory-model/
> > > > > > +
> > > > > > +/// A compiler barrier.
> > > > > > +///
> > > > > > +/// A barrier that prevents compiler from reordering memory accesses across the barrier.
> > > > > > +pub(crate) fn barrier() {
> > > > > > +    // By default, Rust inline asms are treated as being able to access any memory or flags, hence
> > > > > > +    // it suffices as a compiler barrier.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I don't know about this, but it also isn't my area of expertise... I
> > > > > think I heard Ralf talk about this at Rust Week, but I don't remember...
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Easy, let's Cc Ralf ;-)
> > > > 
> > > > Ralf, I believe the question here is:
> > > > 
> > > > In kernel C, we define a compiler barrier (barrier()), which is
> > > > implemented as:
> > > > 
> > > > # define barrier() __asm__ __volatile__("": : :"memory")
> > > > 
> > > > Now we want to have a Rust version, and I think an empty `asm!()` should
> > > > be enough as an equivalent as a barrier() in C, because an empty
> > > > `asm!()` in Rust implies "memory" as the clobber:
> > > > 
> > > > 	https://godbolt.org/z/3z3fnWYjs
> > > > 
> > > > ?
> > > > 
> > > > I know you have some opinions on C++ compiler_fence() [1]. But in LKMM,
> > > > barrier() and other barriers work for all memory accesses not just
> > > > atomics, so the problem "So, if your program contains no atomic
> > > > accesses, but some atomic fences, those fences do nothing." doesn't
> > > > exist for us. And our barrier() is strictly weaker than other barriers.
> > > > 
> > > > And based on my understanding of the consensus on Rust vs LKMM, "do
> > > > whatever kernel C does and rely on whatever kernel C relies" is the
> > > > general suggestion, so I think an empty `asm!()` works here. Of course
> > > > if in practice, we find an issue, I'm happy to look for solutions ;-)
> > > > 
> > > > Thoughts?
> > > > 
> > > > [1]: https://github.com/rust-lang/unsafe-code-guidelines/issues/347
> > > 
> > > If I understood correctly, this is about using "compiler barriers" to order
> > > volatile accesses that the LKMM uses in lieu of atomic accesses?
> > > I can't give a principled answer here, unfortunately -- as you know, the
> > > mapping of LKMM through the compiler isn't really in a state where we can
> > > make principled formal statements. And making principled formal statements
> > > is my main expertise so I am a bit out of my depth here. ;)
> > > 
> > 
> > Understood ;-)
> > 
> > > So I agree with your 2nd paragraph: I would say just like the fact that you
> > > are using volatile accesses in the first place, this falls under "do
> > > whatever the C code does, it shouldn't be any more broken in Rust than it is
> > > in C".
> > > 
> > > However, saying that it in general "prevents reordering all memory accesses"
> > > is unlikely to be fully correct -- if the compiler can prove that the inline
> > > asm block could not possibly have access to a local variable (e.g. because
> > > it never had its address taken), its accesses can still be reordered. This
> > > applies both to C compilers and Rust compilers. Extra annotations such as
> > > `noalias` (or `restrict` in C) can also give rise to reorderings around
> > > arbitrary code, including such barriers. This is not a problem for
> > > concurrent code since it would anyway be wrong to claim that some pointer
> > > doesn't have aliases when it is accessed by multiple threads, but it shows
> > 
> > Right, it shouldn't be a problem for most of the concurrent code, and
> > thank you for bringing this up. I believe we can rely on the barrier
> > behavior if the memory accesses on both sides are done via aliased
> > references/pointers, which should be the same as C code relies on.
> > 
> > One thing though is we don't use much of `restrict` in kernel C, so I
> > wonder the compiler's behavior in the following code:
> > 
> >      let mut x = KBox::new_uninit(GFP_KERNEL)?;
> >      // ^ KBox is our own Box implementation based on kmalloc(), and it
> >      // accepts a flag in new*() functions for different allocation
> >      // behavior (can sleep or not, etc), of course we want it to behave
> >      // like an std Box in term of aliasing.
> > 
> >      let x = KBox::write(x, foo); // A
> > 
> >      smp_mb():
> >        // using Rust asm!() for explanation, it's really implemented in
> >        // C.
> >        asm!("mfence");
> > 
> >      let a: &Atomic<*mut Foo> = ...; // `a` was null initially.
> > 
> >      a.store(KBox::into_raw(x), Relaxed); // B
> > 
> > Now we obviously want A and B to be ordered, because smp_mb() is
> > supposed to be stronger than Release ordering. So if another thread does
> > an Acquire read or uses address dependency:
> > 
> >      let a: &Atomic<*mut Foo> = ...;
> >      let foo_ptr = a.load(Acquire); // or load(Relaxed);
> > 
> >      if !foo_ptr.is_null() {
> >          let y: KBox<Foo> = unsafe { KBox::from_raw(foo_ptr) };
> > 	// ^ this should be safe.
> >      }
> > 
> > Is it something Rust AM could guarantee?
> 
> If we pretend these are normal Rust atomics, and we look at the acquire
> read, then yeah that should work -- the asm block can act like a release
> fence. With the LKMM, it's not a "guarantee" in the same sense any more
> since it lacks the formal foundations, but "it shouldn't be worse than in
> C".

> 
> The Rust/C/C++ memory models do not allow that last example with a relaxed
> load and an address dependency. In C/C++ this requires "consume", which Rust

Sorry I wasn't clear, of course I wasn't going to start a discussion
about address dependency and formal guarantee about it ;-)

What I meant was the "prevent reordering A and B because of the asm!()"
at the release side, because normally we won't use a restrict pointer to
a kmalloc() result, so I'm curious whether Box make the behavior
different:

    let mut b = Box::new_uninit(...);
    let b = Box::write(b, ...); // <- this is a write done via noalias
    asm!(...);
    a.store(Box::from_raw(b), Relaxed);

But looks like we can just model the asm() as a Rust release fence, so
it should work. Thanks!

Regards,
Boqun


> doesn't have (and which clang treats as "acquire" -- and GCC does the same,
> IIRC), and which nobody figured out how to properly integrate into any of
> these languages. I will refrain from making any definite statements for the
> LKMM here. ;)
> 
[...]

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